The EV fact thread

[Bellow]

Eh? NOx isn't hydrocarbon, CO2 or particulate.

IIRC JCB claimed that the raw exhaust from their hydrogen engine already contains less NOx than EU6 diesel exhaust, and it can be reduced to unmeasurable levels by exhaust treatment.

If it can't be measured then it would presumably qualify as zero emission (because nobody would know if it was there or not!).

NOx output from hydrogen ICE is a little vague. There are reports that NOx can be an issue due IIRC to relatively high combustion temperature. That said, hydrogen combustion is very fast and, NOx production is time dependent (which is why diesels are plagued - very high pressures and high localised temperature crucially, over an extended time frame). Therefore it is plausible that low NOx levels are achievable and in this context I doubt that JCB would make false claims as they would surely rebound adversely on them and impinge on its objectives.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I don't consider myself an EVangelist, I reluctantly got one due to the massive saving when leasing through the business. When I say 'reluctantly', I do not mean to say that I objected to the idea of driving an EV (I even took a Model-X on a test drive a couple of years earlier), it's just that at the time I had my W204 for only 4 years, and I wasn't really expecting to replace it just yet - in fact, I kept the W204 for another year before being persuaded to part ways with it (long story).

The reason for my (excessive) posting on here is quite simple. I leased the EV, and got on with it. Charging was never an issue. Range was never an issue. Speed on the motorway was never an issue. Heating and cooling was never an issue. The battery is still good. Etc etc. And so, seeing some of the fantastic arguments made against EVs, I just felt that I needed to set the record straight, and to redress the balance. However, responding to outlandish comments has become a tiring game of Whack-a-mole.

To clarify, with current tech, EVs won't work for everyone. I am now in Switzerland, and a local builder (originally from Albania) who travels regularly for work between Zurich and Geneva said he replaced his Vito with an EV van, then after a year swapped it back to a Vito - the EV van didn't work for him. And yes, he's the type that drives hours without stopping (while emptying Red Bull cans) at illegal speeds. So an EV van doesn't work for him - yet.

The issue I see, though, is that these extreme-use cases are often paraded at the forefront of the anti-EV debate. Many if the comments on here may not be factually incorrect, but I do find them disingenuous.

I would also not consider myself to be EVangelst but understand that someone with different views may believe that I am. There could be nothing further from the truth, I am relatively heavily invested in ICE in all respects.

However I bought an EV to see for myself what living with an EV would be like, rather than rely on the views of the vocal few, of which I am now one! It’s not my only car so I am in the very fortunate position that I could view it as an experiment.

I have found that buying wasn’t really any more expensive to buy than other cars I would consider. A slight compromise on age in many cases is the most it would take, and I hear now some EVs are dropping below the value of equivalent ICEs.

I have found that range isn’t really an issue, despite having an EV with one of the smallest batteries. I don’t drive very far on a normal day, and I can charge at home. If I need to travel further then I just charge along the way, like refuelling an ICE car.

I have found that the public charging infrastructure really isn’t an issue. There are many chargers along major routes and in cities, towns and villages. By exception areas with fewer just require a little thought and planning, and I mean a little.

I have found that the time it takes to charge really isn’t an issue, despite having an EV with one of the slowest charging speeds. If I charge when I am out, by the time I’ve done what I’m doing it’s long since been back up to 100% and ready to go.

I have found that charging with a 3 pin socket really isn’t an issue, because since owning if I have never actually driven further on two consecutive days than the range I can put into the battery overnight on the slowest rate of charge.

I have found that range when cold or driving at speed really isn’t an issue, both things affect range but it’s neither a surprise nor an inconvenience, a very rare journey which is between winter and summer range might require a top up.

I have found that the cost insuring an EV really isn’t an issue, and it actually cost less to insure than an older, less valuable and much much slower equivalent ICE car. It’s now insured by my daughter and that was jolly reasonable too.

I have found that it really isn’t dull to drive, it has just as much character as it’s ICE equivalent, road noise isn’t excessive due to the lack of engine noise, and that lack of engine noise but not distract from the pleasure of driving.

I have found that the weight of the battery really isn’t an issue, as the car accelerates much more briskly - especially from lower speeds - and and handles relatively sweetly, in fact it@/ a real joy to thread down country lanes for fun.

I have found that I’m using my other cars less often because it makes more sense to use an EV in every respect for the majority of journeys. It’s costs less, it’s refined, relaxed and avoids running an engine from cold for relatively short journeys.

I have found that I an EV is as capable as an ICE (or better) at almost everything I use a car for, except towing (and I rarely do that now), which would be similarly true for the vast majority, but not the exceptions with extreme requirements.

I have found that I don’t feel the need to tell others why they need to switch to EVs, but I do feel the need to point out that what is often said by people who don’t have experience of driving an EV is very often not a true reflection of real life.

 

[markjay]

NOx output from hydrogen ICE is a little vague. There are reports that NOx can be an issue due IIRC to relatively high combustion temperature. That said, hydrogen combustion is very fast and, NOx production is time dependent (which is why diesels are plagued - very high pressures and high localised temperature crucially, over an extended time frame). Therefore it is plausible that low NOx levels are achievable and in this context I doubt that JCB would make false claims as they would surely rebound adversely on them and impinge on its objectives.

I also doubt that NOx emissions from engines used primarily as plant machinery in industrial area would be a major issue? The concentration will never reach critical levels.

 

[Bellow]

I also doubt that NOx emissions from engines used primarily as plant machinery in industrial area would be a major issue? The concentration will never reach critical levels.

That isn't a criterion though. Emission regs apply irrespective of where the engine operates.
In the case of JCB I have a recollection of it using very lean mixtures (viable with hydrogen) which lowers combustion temperature - much more than with a diesel running the same excess air. That lowered combustion temperature will reduce NOx production and thus JCB's claims are credible IMO.

 

[markjay]

That isn't a criterion though. Emission regs apply irrespective of where the engine operates.
In the case of JCB I have a recollection of it using very lean mixtures (viable with hydrogen) which lowers combustion temperature - much more than with a diesel running the same excess air. That lowered combustion temperature will reduce NOx production and thus JCB's claims are credible IMO.

My understanding that Stage V regulations - applicable to non-road mobile machinery - are more relaxed than those for cars under EU6.

 

[Will]

And of course, you don’t see many JCBs in urban environments/major cities where emissions-based zones are often found either (ULEZ/CAZs etc)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

And of course, you don’t see many JCBs in urban environments/major cities where emissions-based zones are often found either (ULEZ/CAZs etc)

Although the French are working on this ….

 

[BIGDOG]

Two great posts here from markjay and bobbydazzler.

Disappointing that the anti-EV guys have nothing to say about them.

BD
7 litres
11 cylinders

 

[tode]

I fail to understand why certain members, obviously extremely anti-EV, spend so much time on this thread.

I don't like motor-bikes, but it would never occur to me to spend my time shouting on a bikers' forum . . .

Not too keen on smelly socks, either

 

[BTB 500]

Although the French are working on this ….

View attachment 166948

Those look like Massey Ferguson and New Holland to me

 

[markjay]

I fail to understand why certain members, obviously extremely anti-EV, spend so much time on this thread.

I don't like motor-bikes, but it would never occur to me to spend my time shouting on a bikers' forum . . .

Not too keen on smelly socks, either

I think that the issue with EVs is that it's coming to everyone... sooner or later.

My guess is that the so-called 'anti-EV' members are frustrated that their ICE options will be limited and eventually non-available, and that running an ICE car will become unaffordable.

Some may even go as far as entertaining the (futile, I should add) notion that if they keep pointing-out EV's shortcomings, they can perhaps get others on their side and either overturn - or at lease delay - the transition to EVs.

 

[BIGDOG]

I think that the issue with EVs is that it's coming to everyone... sooner or later.

My guess is that the so-called 'anti-EV' members are frustrated that their ICE options will be limited and eventually non-available, and that running an ICE car will become unaffordable.

Some may even go as far as entertaining the (futile, I should add) notion that if they keep pointing-out EV's shortcomings, they can perhaps get others on their side and either overturn - or at lease delay - the transition to EVs.

I think that the members who have an issue with EV are of a ‘certain age’ and are facing an uncertain motoring future because they cannot see a way of running an EV beyond it’s expected retirement date.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

There are some very good reasons why I'm still in ICE.

And none of them are because all EV's catch fire, run out of juice as soon as they reach a motorway, and can only be charged from expensive specialist charging stations

But in the past I also thought that Xerox WP, Multimate, Lotus 1-2-3, Smartphones, iPods, Apple portables and Browsers "weren't quite good enough" first time out. But it was very obvious that they were real game changers.

And, yes, I did actually test, but not buy, all that kit.

Even though I knew people who made a fortune out of them, at the time.

(We can discuss ChatGPT and AI another time. Another dotcom crash in the making.)

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

View attachment 166963

You look quite different to how I imagined

 

[Dryce]

I think that the members who have an issue with EV are of a ‘certain age’ and are facing an uncertain motoring future because they cannot see a way of running an EV beyond it’s expected retirement date.

There is a difference between having 'an issue with an EV' and having an issue with EV policy.

I'm quite blunt. I look at what's out there and quite bluntly point out that in market terms EV are a failure. Despite subsidies on EVs and increased regulation against ICE vehicles the headway that EVs are making in the market is not as expected.

So does that mean they are bad ? No. Does that mean I want one. Well that's more complicated.

And for those who are early adopters or fans or advocates then those of us who who make the choice against an EV today are somehow tainted because we don't see the light, or just can't see around non-problems, or whatever.

This topic is painful at times. There are several members who just see any questioning of the transition as being down to blinkers and stereotyping. There's one or two EV fanbois.

That is why a statement like "I think that the members who have an issue with EV are of a ‘certain age’" is concerning.

It's the sort of statement that potentially says more about the poster than they realise.

 

[Dryce]

But in the past I also thought that Xerox WP, Multimate, Lotus 1-2-3, Smartphones, iPods, Apple portables and Browsers "weren't quite good enough" first time out. But it was very obvious that they were real game changers.

Nicely put.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You look quite different to how I imagined

But I told you I was a redhead.

And all of us who worked for IBM Hursley, carried on wearing dark blue suits for a long time after we left.

 

[ToeKnee]

You look quite different to how I imagined

Really? He looks just like I imagined to be honest.......

 

[ALFAitalia]

My guess is that the so-called 'anti-EV' members are frustrated that their ICE options will be limited and eventually non-available, and that running an ICE car will become unaffordable.

To be honest I can't see that happening in my lifetime. Current predictions don't expect EVs to account for more than 30 percent of cars by 2035.

 

[philnewmerc]

I wonder if there'll always be an advantage in lower costs for those charging at home (i.e even when all the lamp posts have chargers and the 1/2 the population without their own parking can charge overnight too). If so that would be very annoying for all those without off street parking... 2 tier car ownership costs. I imagine it would be a very positive result for the likes of Reform et al to take advantage of.