The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

By what definition does a hybrid NOT have an Internal Combustion Engine?

I read the intended meaning as ICE-only models.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I read the intended meaning as ICE-only models.

For sure, Boys.... It's a common thing for EVangelists to count hybrids in their "Electric" numbers.

But a hybrid with a 10,20, or even 30 mile plug-in range is still a fudge to the EV transition.

An EV that's even harder to maintain by plugging in.

With an ordinary EV most will only plug in once a week, or before a long distance drive,

but with a hybrid you're looking more at plugging in after driving.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Hybrids will be just as banned for new sale after 2035 as pure ICE....so what's the difference!?

 

[Dryce]

Hybrids will be just as banned for new sale after 2035 as pure ICE....so what's the difference!?

Half a decade to make a decision and commit before last orders.

More time for the powers that be to back peddle again.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Just in from Germany, the car rental firm Sixt is following Hertz in dropping Tesla from its hire care range, due to reliability, maintenance and depreciation concerns.

Still committed to being 100% electric by the end of the decade.

(I’m still finding it difficult to hire BEV’s rather than ICE across Europe. In the case of Sixt, just one in 14 of its vehicles are EV)

Sixt to Phase Out Teslas From Rental Car Fleet on Poor Resale Value

Sixt SE is phasing out Tesla Inc. electric cars from its fleet after the manufacturer’s heavy price cuts hurt residual values at Europe’s biggest car-rental company.

www.bloomberg.com

Sixt to phase out Tesla EVs from its rental fleet
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-01/sixt-to-drop-teslas-from-rental-car-fleet-on-poor-resale-value?leadSource=uverify wall

My brother in law does about 90,000 miles a year working for Black Box (not the band!).....he wanted to go EV and wanted a Tesla....but they said at 90k?....no way. They wont lease a Tesla at all for anything like that sort of mileage. Reasons being reliability (main one). very poor after sales and parts supply often with no courtesy car so the lease company have to find one and body panels can take months to get, etc etc. So then he said so how about an Mercedes EQE?....no problem at all Sir....hmmm. So they are not any EV....just anti Tesla......at least for high milers.

 

[Dryce]

But a hybrid with a 10,20, or even 30 mile plug-in range is still a fudge to the EV transition.

An EV that's even harder to maintain by plugging in.

With an ordinary EV most will only plug in once a week, or before a long distance drive,

but with a hybrid you're looking more at plugging in after driving.

I agree that it's a fudge .... but maybe more acceptable compromise for may customers over the next 10 years or so.

I'm not convinced MHEVs have any real value.

I think HEVs are a bigger fudge.

BEVs are perceived as a problem by some customers.

PHEVs sit in between - possibly as a compromise between both worlds. Those who have a usage pattern of mainly short but occasional long journeys get the benefit of both as long as they have access to a charging facility that they can use frequently (so arguably not an issue for those who would charge on their own driveway or in a garage).

If the uptake in PHEVs is a result of positive customer decisions then that tells a story if it is sustained.

 

[ALFAitalia]

PHEVs sit in between - possibly the worst of both worlds.

FTFY!
I don't like EV.....but Id have one way before Id consider a PHEV. All the extra complication for negligible gain (except tax if its company car). I really cant see the point. And who is going to want to buy it second hand after 2035. The hard core will stick to ICE....and the rest will be going EV.

 

[philnewmerc]

Phone cameras are an example of a mix of genuine advantage / performance and also some hype. So probably not a bad analogy for the EV situation.

Lots of people in their right minds do buy digital cameras. The issue is the commitment to spending money on an expensive camera that is compromised but "good enough" and always available - or spending money on a dedicated device with more capability (and expense) and weight.

..................

Phone cameras are hybrids. They're successful and ubiquitious as photography devices - a compromise that succeeds despite not being perfect.

Don't wish to start a photo argument but a smart phone will out perform a good compact camera these days. And SLRs have always been the ultimate nerdy camera that most did not buy whether film or digital. (Youtubers use phones without issue).

I'd suggest
2000-2005 digital cameras: worthless
2005-2015: worth something
2015+ good second hand buy even if in the future 1000 Megapixels is the norm (because few people want to blow up the image to A0 size / drive more than a zillion miles)

I think a similar trend will be seen for EVs but maybe add 5 or so years onto the above years.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I agree that it's a fudge .... but maybe more acceptable compromise for may customers over the next 10 years or so.

My grumpy concern is that counting hybrids as electric is just "kicking the can down the road" in terms of addressing the user acceptance issue.

It might 'buy time," but as we've seen on here, a lot of EV objections - apart from mine - are based on nonsense which should / could be addressed sooner.

.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

My brother in law does about 90,000 miles a year working for Black Box (not the band!).....he wanted to go EV and wanted a Tesla....but they said at 90k?....no way. They wont lease a Tesla at all for anything like that sort of mileage. Reasons being reliability (main one). very poor after sales and parts supply often with no courtesy car so the lease company have to find one and body panels can take months to get, etc etc. So then he said so how about an Mercedes EQE?....no problem at all Sir....hmmm. So they are not any EV....just anti Tesla......at least for high milers.

Interesting.

The Sixt & Hertz stories are equally anti-Tesla, not anti-EV. It's Tesla that's coming off-fleet.

There's still an issue in persuading clients to take EV's rather than Dino Juice, but that's a different issue.

Nice to see the rental companies saying - clearly and firmly - it's not the bl**ding drive train and batteries that's the issue, it's the brand's reliability, the components, the service & support. Nothing to do with Dino Juice vs Electric.

 

[markjay]

EDIT

 

[ALFAitalia]

I don't think that a Hyundai is quite him and I don't think the company allow SUV shaped cars for management ...saloons or estates only...........to be honest I was surprised that he was interested in Tesla in the first place....he a bit of a badge snob (like me if I'm honest...at least for cars!) and he's had a chain of various BMW, Mercedes and Audi cars ever since I met him.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I don't think that a Hyundai is quite him and I don't think the company allow SUV shaped cars for management ...saloons or estates only...........to be honest I was surprised that he was interested in Tesla in the first place....he a bit of a badge snob (like me if I'm honest...at least for cars!) and he's had a chain of various BMW, Mercedes and Audi cars ever since I met him.

Both Audi and BMW have something non-SUV to offer. Whether they're any good remains to be seen.

But definitely, avoid the Porsche Taycan that routinely loses half its value in twelve months

 

[Dryce]

FTFY!
I don't like EV.....but Id have one way before Id consider a PHEV. All the extra complication for negligible gain (except tax if its company car). I really cant see the point. And who is going to want to buy it second hand after 2035. The hard core will stick to ICE....and the rest will be going EV.

I don't care as to whether something is an BEV or MHEV or HEV or PHEV as long as it can deliver against my needs (perceived I guess) at a practical price.

At present the BEVs fail on both needs (yeah I know ... perceived) and price.

But if a PHEV delivers against those criteria then why not?

 

[ALFAitalia]

@MikeInWimbledon

Not that id buy one (nor could I offord one TBH)....but I could not live with that headlight area design. "Nice car Mr designer......but where are the headlights?"
"s**t...I forgot them boss"
"....you have ten minutes to draw them in!"


Its sister car is just so much better looking.....and EV or not its a good looking motor. I'm guessing that since its the same car under the skin depreciation will be much the same.

 

[Dryce]

Nice to see the rental companies saying - clearly and firmly - it's not the bl**ding drive train and batteries that's the issue, it's the brand's reliability, the components, the service & support. Nothing to do with Dino Juice vs Electric.

Was there not also the issue of pricing / depreciation - which may be down to Tesla's fleet pricing deals and strategy.

So there may be attempt to pressure Tesla if they are behaving differently to other manufacturers ?

 

[ALFAitalia]

I don't care as to whether something is an BEV or MHEV or HEV or PHEV as long as it can deliver against my needs (perceived I guess) at a practical price.

At present the BEVs fail on both needs (yeah I know ... perceived) and price.

But if a PHEV delivers against those criteria then why not?

Fair enough.....but in that case you would be better off sticking with ICE if its a personally owned car. Less to go wrong.....tiny if any difference in overall running costs.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Fair enough.....but in that case you would be better off sticking with ICE if its a personally owned car. Less to go wrong.....tiny if any difference in overall running costs.

And cheaper to buy, slower to depreciate and lighter, with much better handling.... (see BMW 330e)

 

[philnewmerc]

My grumpy concern is that counting hybrids as electric is just "kicking the can down the road" in terms of addressing the user acceptance issue.

It might 'buy time," but as we've seen on here, a lot of EV objections - apart from mine - are based on nonsense which should / could be addressed sooner.

.

lol, and mine

Both Audi and BMW have something non-SUV to offer. Whether they're any good remains to be seen.

But definitely, avoid the Porsche Taycan that routinely loses half its value in twelve months

View attachment 150288

this is tremendous news for future Philnewmerc

 

[philnewmerc]

FTFY!
I don't like EV.....but Id have one way before Id consider a PHEV. All the extra complication for negligible gain (except tax if its company car). I really cant see the point. And who is going to want to buy it second hand after 2035. The hard core will stick to ICE....and the rest will be going EV.

Surely local trips on battery plugged in overnight cheap as chips and zero emission is good, then you have petrol for the longer motorway trips where electricity is not much different in price to petrol and no range anxiety? Seems best of both worlds to me