The EV fact thread

[BTB 500]

It would be good to know why e-bike and e-scooter batteries are exploding and catching fire at what appears to be a disproportionately high rate.

After all, Li-ion isn't new tech. We've had laptops, mobile phones, portable power tools, portable vacuum cleaners and obviously electric vehicles for many years now, and yet it seems that e-bikes and e-scooters are far more dangerous than other Li-ion powered devices.

So far, a hightend fire risks were always linked to a specific product or batch (e.g. Galaxy Note, HP ProBook, etc), which is something that can obviously happen when manufacturing products. But the exploding e-bikes and e-scooters are made by a variety of manufacturers, and so it's not clear why they fail at such an alarming rate compared to other Li-ion based products.

The first thing is that size matters - a small mobile phone or vape battery catching fire is bad, but the volume of flame/gas/smoke isn't huge. Bike/scooter batteries are big enough to vent jets of flame out (like a smaller version of an EV battery), so the consequences of such are fire are more serious.

In terms of the fires themselves Li Ion batteries can ignite for various reasons including

• Internal manufacturing defects/flaws in cells
• Physical damage to cells (caused by dropping, crushing, piercing, vibration, etc.
• Internal pack issues (short circuit, inadequate or faulty voltage monitoring, water ingress, etc.)
• Inappropriate charging (too long, too fast), due to very basic or faulty charge boards/voltage monitoring
• Internal overheating or exposure to extreme external heat

Where things are manufactured as cheaply as possible in an unregulated way there are obviously significant risks of low quality components being used and design/manufacturing being 'sub optimal'. If you buy a Bosch e-bike power system from a reputable retailer it's unlikely to ever cause problems. But if you buy cheap stuff on eBay / Amazon / Aliexpress / Banggood / etc. you may not be so lucky.

 

[markjay]

The first thing is that size matters - a small mobile phone or vape battery catching fire is bad, but the volume of flame/gas/smoke isn't huge. Bike/scooter batteries are big enough to vent jets of flame out (like a smaller version of an EV battery), so the consequences of such are fire are more serious.

In terms of the fires themselves Li Ion batteries can ignite for various reasons including

• Internal manufacturing defects/flaws in cells
• Physical damage to cells (caused by dropping, crushing, piercing, vibration, etc.
• Internal pack issues (short circuit, inadequate or faulty voltage monitoring, water ingress, etc.)
• Inappropriate charging (too long, too fast), due to very basic or faulty charge boards/voltage monitoring
• Internal overheating or exposure to extreme external heat

Where things are manufactured as cheaply as possible in an unregulated way there are obviously significant risks of low quality components being used and design/manufacturing being 'sub optimal'. If you buy a Bosch e-bike power system from a reputable retailer it's unlikely to ever cause problems. But if you buy cheap stuff on eBay / Amazon / Aliexpress / Banggood / etc. you may not be so lucky.

This makes sense.

So, e-bikes and e-scooters have large-enough batteries to pose a serious fire risk (as opposed to the smaller batteries found in mobile phones, laptops, power tools, and other rechargeable devices), but most are cheap enough to be manufactured by a myriad of small companies in the Far East who do not bother with the build quality or safety features required to mitigate the risk of fire.

Sounds plausible.

 

[Bellow]

It would be good to know why e-bike and e-scooter batteries are exploding and catching fire at what appears to be a disproportionately high rate.

After all, Li-ion isn't new tech. We've had laptops, mobile phones, portable power tools, portable vacuum cleaners and obviously electric vehicles for many years now, and yet it seems that e-bikes and e-scooters are far more dangerous than other Li-ion powered devices.

So far, a hightend fire risks were always linked to a specific product or batch (e.g. Galaxy Note, HP ProBook, etc), which is something that can obviously happen when manufacturing products. But the exploding e-bikes and e-scooters are made by a variety of manufacturers, and so it's not clear why they fail at such an alarming rate compared to other Li-ion based products.

When Channel 4 News reported on this some time ago IIRC it was during recharging the fires occurred. Poor quality chargers seem to be the main reason but unclear whether poor quality means poor quality (ie, components) or an unsuitable charging regime for the battery. The latter was IIRC accredited to chargers being used that were intended for some other application.

 

[BTB 500]

It could be a combination of things e.g. 'user error' in putting a pack that's actually fully charged back on charge, and the charger not being intelligent enough to detect this (or being faulty of course).

There's a YouTube channel I watch occasionally with a guy who does teardowns of electrical/electronic equipment, both branded items and eBay specials. Quite interesting/entertaining e.g.

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[BTB 500]

Latest YTD van registration data from the SMMT (to end of September):



So BEV vans under 3.5 tonnes have a market share of 4.8%, down from 5.5% last year. The market share of diesels and 'others' (presumably hybrids, but perhaps including a few hydrogen fuel cell ones too?) have both gone up.

It's also been announced today that BEV vans will have to pay the London Congestion Charge from the end of next year - that's really going to help sales

MSN

 

[clk320x]

It's also been announced today that BEV vans will have to pay the London Congestion Charge from the end of next year - that's really going to help sales

Hasn’t it been well known for years that the ‘clean air zone discount’ ends at the end of 2025?

 

[Bellow]

It could be a combination of things e.g. 'user error' in putting a pack that's actually fully charged back on charge, and the charger not being intelligent enough to detect this (or being faulty of course).

There's a YouTube channel I watch occasionally with a guy who does teardowns of electrical/electronic equipment, both branded items and eBay specials. Quite interesting/entertaining e.g.

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Haven't the time for the video but IIRC from the Ch4 News piece, using the wrong charger was an aspect in many of the fires. I think, some (all?) e-bikes were sold without chargers leading to the 'any charger at hand' being used.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Latest YTD van registration data from the SMMT (to end of September):

View attachment 162395

So BEV vans under 3.5 tonnes have a market share of 4.8%, down from 5.5% last year. The market share of diesels and 'others' (presumably hybrids, but perhaps including a few hydrogen fuel cell ones too?) have both gone up.

It's also been announced today that BEV vans will have to pay the London Congestion Charge from the end of next year - that's really going to help sales

MSN

If Other does indeed include hybrid which I assume it must then I’m surprised that “Other” hasn’t gone up by more than that. I only know a few people who run new vans, but several of those who I do know have switched from other brands (mostly VW) to Transit Hybrids.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

It could be a combination of things e.g. 'user error' in putting a pack that's actually fully charged back on charge, and the charger not being intelligent enough to detect this (or being faulty of course).

There's a YouTube channel I watch occasionally with a guy who does teardowns of electrical/electronic equipment, both branded items and eBay specials. Quite interesting/entertaining e.g.

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I haven’t watched the video but any video or article with “Chinese” in the name loses some credibility points IMHO, which is a shame if the content is otherwise credible as it may put some people off. I dare say though that those who do it know their audience and know that it will attract more than it will put off.

 

[BTB 500]

I only know a few people who run new vans, but several of those who I do know have switched from other brands (mostly VW) to Transit Hybrids.

Ironically the latest VW Transporter is the same van as the Transit (it's a Ford/VW joint venture).

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Ironically the latest VW Transporter is the same van as the Transit (it's a Ford/VW joint venture).

Several of them mentioned exactly that.

 

[markjay]

Ironically the latest VW Transporter is the same van as the Transit (it's a Ford/VW joint venture).

Seen a few of the new VW Transporter EVs around recently where I live, they certainly look the part. One was an MPV, the others were panel vans with company livery.

Hope they catch on - I am even tempted to consider one (MPV, not panel van) when my current lease expires - Mrs MJ wants a car with more seats, for the children and grandchildren.

 

[BTB 500]

Seen a few of the new VW Transporter EVs around recently where I live, they certainly look the part. One was an MPV, the others were panel vans with company livery.

Hope they catch on - I am even tempted to consider one (MPV, not panel van) when my current lease expires - Mrs MJ wants a car with more seats, for the children and grandchildren.

You mean the ID. Buzz I guess?

The new T7 Transporter (same vehicle as the latest Transit) arrives early in 2025 and will be available as a diesel, PHEV (2.5 litre petrol) or BEV.

 

[markjay]

You mean the ID. Buzz I guess?

The new T7 Transporter (same vehicle as the latest Transit) arrives early in 2025 and will be available as a diesel, PHEV (2.5 litre petrol) or BEV.

Yes, of course, I did mean the ID. Buzz.

 

[poormansporsche]

Top tip of the day......

If you already own a EV, next March, SORN it for one day, take your 0 pence refund, then re-tax for 12 months paying your 0 pence. Thus saving 11 months and upwards of £170 on the new £190 EV VED coming in April.

......... And you get the satisfaction of of sticking 2 fingers up to Rachel by using their own rules

 

[SmartAmg]

Top tip of the day......

If you already own a EV, next March, SORN it for one day, take your 0 pence refund, then re-tax for 12 months paying your 0 pence. Thus saving 11 months and upwards of £170 on the new £190 EV VED coming in April.

......... And you get the satisfaction of of sticking 2 fingers up to Rachel by using their own rules

Exactly what I'm gonna do.

 

[clk320x]

Top tip of the day......

If you already own a EV, next March, SORN it for one day, take your 0 pence refund, then re-tax for 12 months paying your 0 pence. Thus saving 11 months and upwards of £170 on the new £190 EV VED coming in April.

......... And you get the satisfaction of of sticking 2 fingers up to Rachel by using their own rules

Thanks

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

My mate Dave might or might not be assembling a panel to participate in some very early consumer testing of cars retrofitted (with full manufacturer support) with new battery and charging technology.

It’s already running in LHD prototypes of the Porsche Taycan/Macan, Mercedes EQA/EQS and these will be the basis of the initial fleet. Neue Boxster and a secret city car will be available later.

Naturally the full cost of the car - including repairs, maintenance, public charging and insurance - will all be covered. Charging must be using the public network only, no charging at home/work.

Participants must sign an NDA and will be screened. The key criteria is that they must have a use case which they believe cannot be fulfilled by an EV. - the most challenging will be favoured.

Participants must also agree to having an app installed on their smartphone (device not provided) which will be used for passive and active data collection including location.

The main testing will be performed by professional test drivers. Measured objective data generated by what we’re calling “real world” drivers may or may not be used, their role is subjective assessment.

I can’t disclose details of how different the technology is, however the purpose is to gauge whether that difference is material enough to switch production models for 2028 MY.

Final thing is you must agree to use the car provided for every journey which you would use your own car for over 24 months, unless there’s a fault in which case an equivalent will be provided.

I’m guessing that it won’t be of interest to MBClubbers matching the criteria, but I thought I’d post it anyway to see if anyone bites. The NDA means you can’t disclose participation if selected.

PS There will be a quarterly 2-night trip to Stuttgart, which a 1-week induction and two 1-week debriefing sessions at the end. Oh and there is a 6 month lead time on RHD cars.

PPS The cars can be used for aocial, domestic, pleasure and commuting, but not for business use. An individual claiming mileage expenses is fine as this is not considered business use here.

: D​

 

[SpikyMikey]

My mate Dave might or might not be assembling a panel to participate in some very early consumer testing of cars retrofitted (with full manufacturer support) with new battery and charging technology.

It’s already running in LHD prototypes of the Porsche Taycan/Macan, Mercedes EQA/EQS and these will be the basis of the initial fleet. Neue Boxster and a secret city car will be available later.

Naturally the full cost of the car - including repairs, maintenance, public charging and insurance - will all be covered. Charging must be using the public network only, no charging at home/work.

Participants must sign an NDA and will be screened. The key criteria is that they must have a use case which they believe cannot be fulfilled by an EV. - the most challenging will be favoured.

Participants must also agree to having an app installed on their smartphone (device not provided) which will be used for passive and active data collection including location.

The main testing will be performed by professional test drivers. Measured objective data generated by what we’re calling “real world” drivers may or may not be used, their role is subjective assessment.

I can’t disclose details of how different the technology is, however the purpose is to gauge whether that difference is material enough to switch production models for 2028 MY.

Final thing is you must agree to use the car provided for every journey which you would use your own car for over 24 months, unless there’s a fault in which case an equivalent will be provided.

I’m guessing that it won’t be of interest to MBClubbers matching the criteria, but I thought I’d post it anyway to see if anyone bites. The NDA means you can’t disclose participation if selected.

PS There will be a quarterly 2-night trip to Stuttgart, which a 1-week induction and two 1-week debriefing sessions at the end. Oh and there is a 6 month lead time on RHD cars.

PPS The cars can be used for aocial, domestic, pleasure and commuting, but not for business use. An individual claiming mileage expenses is fine as this is not considered business use here.

: D​

 

[SpikyMikey]

I have no words...
Parking