The EV fact thread

[markjay]

Or, in other words, I could calculate the average price of an airline ticket over the past year, and the result will be mathematically correct, however it will be as useful as a chocolate teapot when trying to answer the questuon of how much will a flight from Edinburgh to Rome will cost me tomorrow morning.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Or, in other words, I could calculate the average price of an airline ticket over the past year, and the result will be mathematically correct, however it will be as useful as a chocolate teapot when trying to answer the questuon of how much will a flight from Edinburgh to Rome will cost me tomorrow morning.

Absolutely true.

 

[Connoisseur]

With our A205 Cab now safely tucked up in storage for the winter we are, for the next 5 months, an all ev household.

We have, as you would expect, taken precautions to avoid the expected attacks of pestilence, flame and Trump worshippers, and will spend the time in quiet contemplation of automated gliding through traffic jams, a satisfying whupping of the occasional AMG discovered in a cheeky pole position at some traffic lights, or on a winding country road where the straights are always long enough to regain any advantage released back on the twisty bits - last week I was just an observer to a rather lightweight Kia Nero ev ahead of us demonstrating how a full fat and wheel arch expanded BMW was in a different (lower) league to an ev car when making competitive progress. Will they never learn?

But seriously, there is no need to repeatedly inform ev drivers of how bad their choice of transport it. After all, we don’t ever mention the lack of real acceleration in most ICE cars, nor their terribly complicated construction methods which leave owners covered in oil and other nasty things, or embarrassment at having being fleeced by a nasty Dealer.

EV can envelope you in an automated winter cosseting where every morning you step into a warm, clear windowed and fully fuelled cabin, or it will allow a savage and fun-filled boost of instant torque, but silently so as not to disturb the neighbours.

I will of course return to the ICE fold next April, until that is Mercedes bless us with an ev Cabriolet

 

[SmartAmg]

Don’t worry, certain members will be along to dissect these figures soon.

Which certain Members?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

And your point, is?

My point is I spent a while in a country that is aligning itself with Chins/Russia and their friends. But seems to have zero interest in the complete bollocks that is 'Net Zero' mantra that will impoverish us all (in the UK) , They just want bread on the table.
[/QUOTE]


You need to get out more.

The whole Southern Hemisphere, bar China, has turned its back on Climate Change and the EV transition.

This is nothing to do with South Africa, it’s the whole of Africa, South America, Australia and India…

Lovely weather today, isn’t it? Isn’t it glorious how the leaves are staying on the trees well beyond Guy Fawkes night ?

 

[markjay]

While it's true that the West can't dictate to other countries how to manage their own affairs, it's also true that the West can and does influence how they go about protecting the environment.

When I worked in West Aftica, illegal logging was a major issue. The West imposed quotas on logging, for obvious reasons, and while these couldn't be physically enforced by France or Britain, the local governments were incentivised to do so via the IMF. The result was armed police at checkpoints stopping every truck carrying logs and checking the paperwork, because the government realised that they will be better off working with the West on this issue. The way local officials put it was that if Westen countries wanted Africans to not chop down their trees and sell them for food, then they should provide for their people instead.

So, yes, green policies do cost us money, in more ways than one.

But to look at the developing world and hope that they'll pollute, pollute, pollute, so that we can justify our own reluctance to battle climate change, is foolhardy.

 

[BTB 500]

It’s not unusually cheap, that’s just the full tariff price at a Tesla Supercharger for another EV, ie not a Tesla. No discounts, no memberships, no subscriptions, full price.

The comment that prompted me to reply was this:

It’s often said that charging using a public charger is very expensive and especially if you don’t pay a monthly membership or subscription cost, and even more so when using the fastest ultra rapid chargers, so I thought I’d share the facts.

I charged using an ultra rapid 150 kW charger in a public charging station, at the full tariff rate as I do not have a membership or subscription, so this should be as expensive as it gets.

My point was that paying 40% less than the national average (which includes much slower chargers, from 50 kW upwards) really isn't as expensive as it gets. That would be way more than the 80p average.

The rate you paid would be equivalent to buying unleaded at 81.12p per litre.

In the same way that I choose where I buy petrol to buy the best fuel at the lowest price, I do the same with EV charging. There are literally so many that when travelling long distances you. An be choosey on which you stop at.

Your costings were based on a short local trip though, and you didn't mention that you'd picked the lowest price available (in fact the opposite was implied).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Today I took our FIAT 500e to pick up some groceries. I rarely use it but it’s the ideal car for this trip: 25 mile round trip, destination is in a city centre, and parking in a multistory car park so neither ramps nor spaces aren’t generous.

Most importantly the car park is always very very busy, however EV charging is plentiful, right outside the M&S lift and the charging bays are extra wide, so I’ll usually pop it on charge even if it costs more than charging at home as it’s so convenient.

It’s often said that charging using a public charger is very expensive and especially if you don’t pay a monthly membership or subscription cost, and even more so when using the fastest ultra rapid chargers, so I thought I’d share the facts.

I charged using an ultra rapid 150 kW charger in a public charging station, at the full tariff rate as I do not have a membership or subscription, so this should be as expensive as it gets. Here’s what it cost and calculated cost per mile.

• 10.6730 kWh @ £0.48 kWh = £5.12
• Round trip average of 4.4 miles/kWh
• Typical consumption of 4.4 to 6.6 miles/kWh
• £0.48 kWh / 4.4 kWh = £0.109 per mile

Let’s compare that to an equivalent ICE powered car which I sometimes use on the same journey, a Smart ForFour, it’s 1.0 naturally aspirated, manual and relatively frugal. I’ve used an expected MPG based upon doing the same journey in the past.

• 4.55 litres @ £1.339 per litre = £6.09 per gallon
• EXPECTED Round trip average of 47 MPG
• Typical consumption of 42 to 58 MPG
• £6.09 / 47 miles = £0.130 per mile

So driving an ICE - even with the relatively low cost of 133.9p per litre of unleaded - costs 19.2% more than driving an equivalent EV using a public rapid chargers without a subscription or membership. In reality it costs more as I use VPower in the Smart.

That’s before factoring in the lower service and insurance costs in the FIAT, both of which are around half that of the Smart, and EV parking being free in that particular car park which today would have saved £1.80 per hour.

Some ultra rapid chargers will cost more, as will some petrol stations. However the reality isn’t anything like what some people say.

Umm, why don't you use a granny charger to top up yours from home?

At 2p per mile overnight, or 10p per mile daytime.

 

[BTB 500]

The issue is that most EV drivers embarking on a long journey will leave home with 100% battery, then only top-up along the route as little as needed to safely complete the journey.

Of course. And nobody would dispute that home charging (assuming you can do this) is cheap.

Most people (including EV owners) accept that high speed public chargers are expensive though, which the worked example appeared to disprove. Hence my reply.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

While it's true that the West can't dictate to other countries how to manage their own affairs, it's also true that the West can and does influence how they go about protecting the environment.

When I worked in West Aftica, illegal logging was a major issue. The West imposed quotas on logging, for obvious reasons, and while these couldn't be physically enforced by France or Britain, the local governments were incentivised to do so via the IMF. The result was armed police at checkpoints stopping every truck carrying logs and checking the paperwork, because the government realised that they will be better off working with the West on this issue. The way local officials put it was that if Westen countries wanted Africans to not chop down their trees and sell them for food, then they should provide for their people instead.

So, yes, green policies do cost us money, in more ways than one.

But to look at the developing world and hope that they'll pollute, pollute, pollute, so that we can justify our own reluctance to battle climate change, is foolhardy.

"Dictating to other countries how to manage their own affairs?"

Count the number of car manufacturers headquartered in the Southern hemisphere.

The EV transition is being driven by China, Europe, California, and "possibly" a Democrat Federal USA "if" she wins on Tuesday. The rest of the world isn't given much choice in the matter, even if Toyota & Japan is slow to tag along.

 

[BTB 500]

But seriously, there is no need to repeatedly inform ev drivers of how bad their choice of transport it.

In case you missed it, this discussion was started by an EV driver:

So driving an ICE - even with the relatively low cost of 133.9p per litre of unleaded - costs 19.2% more than driving an equivalent EV using a public rapid chargers without a subscription or membership.

 

[markjay]

...The rest of the world isn't given much choice in the matter....

Good! I wish we could also impose on them to stop fighting each other, but perhaps I am asking too much.

 

[markjay]

Of course. And nobody would dispute that home charging (assuming you can do this) is cheap.

Most people (including EV owners) accept that high speed public chargers are expensive though, which the worked example appeared to disprove. Hence my reply.

Pimlico Plumbers are also expensive - but no one contracts them to do the plumbing when redeveloping a property, instead people typically only use this expensive service when they need to and have no other choice, and they use it as little as they can. Unless they are super rich and don't care how much things cost, obviously. But when having a discussion regarding the cost of living in the UK, it would be very misleading to use Pimlico Plumbers' hourly rate as an indication of anything. Same applies to the cost of electricity from a 350kW Ionity charger.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

In case you missed it, this discussion was started by an EV driver:

When you say “EV driver”, whilst I would have to answer “yes” in a court of law when asked “Are you an EV driver?”, a more accurate description would be “ICE driver who has an EV for a bit of fun, to see whether reality bares any resemblance to the $417 show often described in online forums and social media by people who haven’t actually experienced driving an EV”.

I love ICE cars. When I say love them, I mean I really really love them. Like an unhealthy amount.

I don’t drive an EV because of tax incentives, I bought my EV as a personal purchase. I don’t drive a EV to save money, as it’s in addition to an already truly ruinous ICE cost. I don’t drive an EV because it will save the planet, because it won’t. I don’t drive an EV because I think other people should drive what I drive, because they would have to be mad to.

I (occasionally) drive an EV to find out what it’s really like rather than rely upon my own preconceptions and the views of people who hold the same preconceptions. I could have done that by engaging with people with opposing views like I am right now - and I do that a lot on all sorts of topics - but the best way in this case is to try it.

I did it because if in future it becomes necessary to drive an EV in order to protect the use of ICE for fun and for those purposes which an EV can’t provide a viable alternative to, then I’ll know what the future holds. I also believe that those who can should - not just in terms of EVs - because it might mean that those who can’t don’t have to.

 

[BTB 500]

Pimlico Plumbers are also expensive - but no one contracts them to do the plumbing when redeveloping a property, instead people typically only use this expensive service when they need to and have no other choice, and they use it as little as they can. Unless they are super rich and don't care how much things cost, obviously. But when having a discussion regarding the cost of living in the UK, it would be very misleading to use Pimlico Plumbers' hourly rate as an indication of anything. Same applies to the cost of electricity from a 350kW Ionity charger.

I'm getting lost here! Are you suggesting that Zapmap's current UK average figure of 80p per kWh is meaningless because it includes a small number of ultra fast chargers that are more expensive to use? But it also includes FAR more low-powered chargers (it's for everything from 50 kW upwards), which would presumably pull the average down.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Umm, why don't you use a granny charger to top up yours from home?

At 2p per mile overnight, or 10p per mile daytime.




View attachment 163541

I do charge it at home, and with a granny cable too, although I don’t have EV tarrif as that makes the rest of our electricity consumption more expensive. My home uses much much more electricity than my EV, so it would actually make the total cost more expensive. It doesn’t make sense for me yet, but that day may come.

Occasionally I do charge whilst I’m out and about. I’m driving an EV as an experiment. As a means of transport, EVs are so good that there is no experiment in the car itself, the real experiment is using public charging infrastructure . If I don’t use them then I won’t know what using one is like. It would also mean that when talking to others I would do so based upon theory, not practice.

 

[markjay]

I'm getting lost here! Are you suggesting that Zapmap's current UK average figure of 80p per kWh is meaningless because it includes a small number of ultra fast chargers that are more expensive to use? But it also includes FAR more low-powered chargers (it's for everything from 50 kW upwards), which would presumably pull the average down.

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. The average cost of energy is a meaningless statistical figure to anyone who are about to get an EV and want to know what their cost-per-mile might be.

 

[Connoisseur]

In case you missed it, this discussion was started by an EV driver:

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I'm getting lost here! Are you suggesting that Zapmap's current UK average figure of 80p per kWh is meaningless because it includes a small number of ultra fast chargers that are more expensive to use? But it also includes FAR more low-powered chargers (it's for everything from 50 kW upwards), which would presumably pull the average down.

Does the ZapMap data include all chargers? The reason I ask is that ZapMap doesn’t include Tesla Superchargers in their published rates.

 

[SmartAmg]

When you say “EV driver”, whilst I would have to answer “yes” in a court of law when asked “Are you an EV driver?”, a more accurate description would be “ICE driver who has an EV for a bit of fun, to see whether reality bares any resemblance to the $417 show often described in online forums and social media by people who haven’t actually experienced driving an EV”.

I love ICE cars. When I say love them, I mean I really really love them. Like an unhealthy amount.

I don’t drive an EV because of tax incentives, I bought my EV as a personal purchase. I don’t drive a EV to save money, as it’s in addition to an already truly ruinous ICE cost. I don’t drive an EV because it will save the planet, because it won’t. I don’t drive an EV because I think other people should drive what I drive, because they would have to be mad to.

I (occasionally) drive an EV to find out what it’s really like rather than rely upon my own preconceptions and the views of people who hold the same preconceptions. I could have done that by engaging with people with opposing views like I am right now - and I do that a lot on all sorts of topics - but the best way in this case is to try it.

I did it because if in future it becomes necessary to drive an EV in order to protect the use of ICE for fun and for those purposes which an EV can’t provide a viable alternative to, then I’ll know what the future holds. I also believe that those who can should - not just in terms of EVs - because it might mean that those who can’t don’t have to.

I drive an EV because that's what "I WANT" to drive, at this moment in time. Simple's.