derektrotter
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Ah, so column shift = at least 7G, then I guess just need to differentiate if it's 7G plus, maybe stop/start means it's the plus.
Early W212 E Class vs BMW F10 5 Series opinions
Ah, so column shift = at least 7G, then I guess just need to differentiate if it's 7G plus, maybe stop/start means it's the plus.
I have an E250cdi coupe. This is based on the C chassis. It has a traditional auto shift lever with stop/start and it is 7Gplus. Some say the engine is noisy - yes its not the quietest, but is very lively and economical. Mine has averaged a true 49.38mpg in mixed motoring over its 41000 miles.
gIzzE
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IMHO the F10 5 Series is leagues ahead of the W212 E Class pre facelift, the facelift seemed to sort a few issues out.
The problem for me was the F11 SE I had before my S212 Avantgarde was far more comfortable and just felt a step up quality wise, especially interior trim wise.
When I first got the E Class I thought it felt more elegant than the 5 series, but after living with it for a few weeks soon realised there were some pretty poor design choices on it.
Lots of cheap plastic everywhere.
Cabin noise was much poorer.
Silly parameter steering which I hated with a passion, had to turn the wheel loads round town, and non linear so as you turned it more when pressing on it tightened so you never really felt in total control.
Seats were crap, just didn't go low enough and the front of the base didn't tilt enough.
The above also meant you couldn't see the cluster properly when you set the steering wheel up to be correct and comfortable, you knew you were doing between 10 and 140mph but if you wanted to be more specific than that you needed to move the wheel up and then it was not comfy.
Armrest on the door too low to hold the steering wheel at the same time, and window sill too high to be comfy.
Very crashy over UK roads compared with the 5 series trying to be more dynamic. That's not what I buy a Merc for.
I'm being picky here, but all the above was after a few months in the 5 series, so a direct comparison. I had been 2 years in facelifted S211 E320 before that, I was wanting the 212 to be like that, it was not.
I would have another again, so please don't take it as a complete slating, but given the choice the F10 5 Series is a real step up imho.
The problem for me was the F11 SE I had before my S212 Avantgarde was far more comfortable and just felt a step up quality wise, especially interior trim wise.
When I first got the E Class I thought it felt more elegant than the 5 series, but after living with it for a few weeks soon realised there were some pretty poor design choices on it.
Lots of cheap plastic everywhere.
Cabin noise was much poorer.
Silly parameter steering which I hated with a passion, had to turn the wheel loads round town, and non linear so as you turned it more when pressing on it tightened so you never really felt in total control.
Seats were crap, just didn't go low enough and the front of the base didn't tilt enough.
The above also meant you couldn't see the cluster properly when you set the steering wheel up to be correct and comfortable, you knew you were doing between 10 and 140mph but if you wanted to be more specific than that you needed to move the wheel up and then it was not comfy.
Armrest on the door too low to hold the steering wheel at the same time, and window sill too high to be comfy.
Very crashy over UK roads compared with the 5 series trying to be more dynamic. That's not what I buy a Merc for.
I'm being picky here, but all the above was after a few months in the 5 series, so a direct comparison. I had been 2 years in facelifted S211 E320 before that, I was wanting the 212 to be like that, it was not.
I would have another again, so please don't take it as a complete slating, but given the choice the F10 5 Series is a real step up imho.
bolide
MB Enthusiast
If you dismiss any car due to forum chatter you'll run out of potential cars very quickly…
All modern diesels are hyper-complex but I suppose that's what warranties are for
Nick Froome
gIzzE
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One thing in the 212's favour is reliability, the head tech from my dealer shops with me, and he said the 212 is one of the cars they see least. He said 211's, 203s, 204's etc. etc. were in on a daily basis with niggles and replacing control arms etc. and the 212 they see maybe one or two a month, like they used to with the W214.
He said if buying a used Merc as a family car that was out of warranty that would be where his money went.
He said if buying a used Merc as a family car that was out of warranty that would be where his money went.
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derektrotter
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Thanks gIzzE for the info its very useful, especially your experience with the F10 and W212, also its good to hear about the W212 reliability, does that also apply to the first W212's (2009/2010) released?
To me after research (and your experience above) it looks like the F10 is the better car but I would not feel comfortable owning it out of warranty (e.g. cannot afford a 15k bill for the engine going!), my budget (14k) will mean the car I buy will have around 80k on the clock, warranty will be £800 - £1200 every year with exclusions, after 100k I can only get a basic driveline warranty.
For me the key question will be (and this is what i've been struggling with for quite a while!), is the F10 that much better then the W212 to be worth the extra every year for the warranty?, my current view is probably not..
A colleague with a 3 series says he started leasing (hence warrantied) after he ran into a few out of warranty issues with his previous BMW's, I've done the sums however and for me leasing works out twice as expensive over the 2/3 year term even when I factor in depreciation, service costs etc of buying outright, before I start a debate I realize its not a fair comparison and I understand leasing is the cheapest way for driving new cars, above is just illustrating my specific scenario where I dont mind driving a car of a certain age
What I will say however is the new E class unveiling in January, in pictures anyway looks very good, has a very S class feel, some pictures of the interior look like the S class in fact, this should hopefully bridge the gap between the F10.
It was part of the reason why I started wondering if the very early W212's (2009/2010) are as reliable as tempting to save some money and just get a very early one (MB approved used) at the moment to minimize the depreciation curve, then upgrade to the newer much improved 2016 E class when its 2/3 years old, I reckon Hybrid tech will be a bit further ahead too so this may be a good approach.
I'll do some more thinking as i'm still not 100% over what car to get as I keep going back and forth, especially when I read experiences where the F10 comes out much farther ahead, I do appreciate all the responses it has really helped
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I've owned a W212 350CDI in Avantgarde spec and now an E63 which is loaded with options. Unlike gIzzE I haven't owned an F10 BMW, but whenever I've been a passenger in one (I have a number of work colleagues who have them) I've been utterly underwhelmed by the experience.
Unless you (or the previous owner!) digs deep into the options box, the BMW interior is, IMO, no better than the E-Class Avantgarde. The ride quality in all the F10's I've been in has been unpleasantly firm - firmer than my E63 - and was significantly bettered by my Avantgarde-spec car. It's true that some people find it difficult to get a comfortable seating position in the pre-facelift W212's so you will need to try that for yourself, but gIzzE is the only person I know who complains about the Direct Steering which is only on Sport-spec or V6 cars anyway so wouldn't be anything to concern yourself about if you're looking at 4-pot cars in Avantgarde or SE trim.
If you're concerned about reliability, I'd suggest looking at the number of 220CDI W212's used as taxis vs. F10 520d's as an indicator.
Unless you (or the previous owner!) digs deep into the options box, the BMW interior is, IMO, no better than the E-Class Avantgarde. The ride quality in all the F10's I've been in has been unpleasantly firm - firmer than my E63 - and was significantly bettered by my Avantgarde-spec car. It's true that some people find it difficult to get a comfortable seating position in the pre-facelift W212's so you will need to try that for yourself, but gIzzE is the only person I know who complains about the Direct Steering which is only on Sport-spec or V6 cars anyway so wouldn't be anything to concern yourself about if you're looking at 4-pot cars in Avantgarde or SE trim.
If you're concerned about reliability, I'd suggest looking at the number of 220CDI W212's used as taxis vs. F10 520d's as an indicator.
D
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If you're that worried about big repair bills you should either buy approved used and keep for just 1 year or buy a new/nearly new Ford or suchlike.
gIzzE
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With the BMW warranty if you can buy one with sub 60k miles on it you get it around half price, and then pay monthly, as it doesn't increase in price that way it is just a rolling contract.
My X3 is £38 a month for fully comprehensive warranty with £100 excess.
The 5 series is very colour dependant, I am not a fan of the all black interiors, but I know this sells the best, get a lighter interior and it makes it feel far more luxurious imho....
My X3 is £38 a month for fully comprehensive warranty with £100 excess.
The 5 series is very colour dependant, I am not a fan of the all black interiors, but I know this sells the best, get a lighter interior and it makes it feel far more luxurious imho....
D
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Agree on the colour, my E60 had cream leather, was a nice place to sit and good contrast against the black paint.
It seemed to work well against the inevitable black bits of interior trim as well, some colours contrast badly with this.
It seemed to work well against the inevitable black bits of interior trim as well, some colours contrast badly with this.
Very useful. My E Coupe - C207 - is of the same vintage, so hoping that the reliability is similar. I must say that this car seems well built and after 3+ years it is still creak free and perform very well indeed. It is one of the few cars that I have not had an itch to change after 3 years. A joy to drive.
bolide
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I agree with that 100%.
There's a thread on the bmw5 forum about F10 / F11 that is very revealing about options & ride quality. It seems that the M Sport pack and 19" runflats are responsible for most of the problem. Who'd have thought, eh?
Do you regret your decision to go with an F10/F11? - F07/F10/F11 2010- - BMW 5 Series Owners Board
Nick Froome
gIzzE
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I've not read the thread, but I can imagine.
The adaptive set up hides how poor run flats still are, so many then think it is the standard spring/damper suspension that causes issues, with the m-sport being even worse.
The truth is it is 100% down to the run flats, they have improved, but they still make the car really crashy over certain surfaces, pot holes and raised ironworks are horrible.
The m-sport set up actually uses really nice struts by Bilstein and when on proper tyres actually ride better than the Boge/Sachs struts used on the SE set up.
The best riding of all the F10/11s is M-Sport on 19" wheels and proper tyres, I actually prefer this to the active set up on proper tyres. I am sure 18" wheels would be even better, but I have not had the chance to try that combo. But the 19's on standard springs rides very, very nicely.
The 18's I had on SE suspension was actually a bit too comfy for me, well not too comfy, but I like a slightly firmer ride, I would say it was slightly softer and more comfy than my S211 Avantgarde, and in a whole different league comfort wise to the S212 Avantgarde.
Buyers seem to spend £2500 on active suspension when simply deleting the run flat option gives far better results all round, all imho of course.
The adaptive set up hides how poor run flats still are, so many then think it is the standard spring/damper suspension that causes issues, with the m-sport being even worse.
The truth is it is 100% down to the run flats, they have improved, but they still make the car really crashy over certain surfaces, pot holes and raised ironworks are horrible.
The m-sport set up actually uses really nice struts by Bilstein and when on proper tyres actually ride better than the Boge/Sachs struts used on the SE set up.
The best riding of all the F10/11s is M-Sport on 19" wheels and proper tyres, I actually prefer this to the active set up on proper tyres. I am sure 18" wheels would be even better, but I have not had the chance to try that combo. But the 19's on standard springs rides very, very nicely.
The 18's I had on SE suspension was actually a bit too comfy for me, well not too comfy, but I like a slightly firmer ride, I would say it was slightly softer and more comfy than my S211 Avantgarde, and in a whole different league comfort wise to the S212 Avantgarde.
Buyers seem to spend £2500 on active suspension when simply deleting the run flat option gives far better results all round, all imho of course.
