Nice Rosberg.. Deliberate?

[John Jones Jr]

Listen, I put this at the end of my post addressed to cb1965 post. Make what you will of it, please have rant at somebody else in the meantime, it's Sunday!

 

[cb1965]

Listen, I put this at the end of my post addressed to cb1965 post. Make what you will of it, please have rant at somebody else in the meantime, it's Sunday!

See you tomorrow then

 

[Bellow]

it's Sunday!

Race day!
Just as Rosberg can't race wheel to wheel, some can't debate facts without being abusive to the other. Stating obvious facts (do you dispute them?) is not ranting.

If it's to be personal, Hamilton the fighter gets my support over Rosberg the cheat.

 

[John Jones Jr]

See you tomorrow then

Might have to do a bit work, there's always Tuesday. Anyway plenty of time for abuse, Monza is not till the 7th

 

[Dryce]

Now he has to regain more than a wins worth of points to match NR's points due in no small measure to NR's actions at Spa (I'll leave Monaco out of this for now). If your preference is for a cheat who can't race wheel to wheel with Hamilton without crashing or otherwise cheating - Rosberg is your man.

One of the reasons I don't participate in F1 forums is this sort of posting tone.

Last week Rosberg was in a position where the he could take more risks at the expense of Hamilton given the points positions relative to each other and relative to the other competitors in the WDC.

Simples.

Rosbergh was being a professional assh*le - just like many drivers in a simnilar position since and probably in the future.

Had Lewis had a similar points advantage then he'd no doubt play a bit 'harder' and make his point too. As would smiley cute Ricciardo or Vettel or Alonso or ....

If Rosberg can be accused of anything it was simple stupidity as on the day the move he pulled could have left him going slow and Hamilton unaffected and out front. So not particularly competent assertiveness.

Hamilton's real problem is that his margin over Rosberg doesn't match his reputation - and Rosberg has been the more consistent finisher (luck or otherwise). Rosberg probably figures this is his one shot at getting the WDC and if he doesn't manage it then he will be eclipsed and his career can only go down - if gets the WDC against Hamilton then it's all to play for next year as well.

 

[brucemillar]

Mercedes will be twitchy about their Number two driver out stripping their No1. Doubtless there will have been commitments made to LH that this would be unlikely.

For me I think it gives LH. A wake up call. He cannot continue push NR onto the grass and ignoring team orders.

I think Lh's petulance is wearing thin and is an almost fortnightly episode featuring his glum face.

Sent from my iPhone using MBClub UK

 

[John Jones Jr]

For me I think it gives LH. A wake up call. He cannot continue push NR onto the grass and ignoring team orders.

That's seems like a very fair comment to me.

 

[Derek Smith]

I've followed F1 since my first GP, the British at Brands in '66. I'm a nerd. I've not followed drivers since Clark and instead been a team supporter: Lotus, Brabham and then McL since the start of Phase 4. I like Hamilton despite abandoning 'my' team. He's always worth watching. He's steadily improved as a driver and, importantly, as a racer over the years and if he was up against the younger Alonso of McL team mate days now in equal cars I feel confident he'd beat him. Again. He's great value, and thrilling.

But then I like Alonso, Vettel, D. Riciardo, Bottas and others. However . . .

I can't think of any driver since 1966 who has confessed to deliberately driving into a team mate. To have done so - that's both drive into a team mate and boast of it - strikes me as just about the pinnacle of unprofessional behaviour.

I fail to see why people dislike LH when he is surely what everyone goes to a motor racing circuit to see. Strange.

The video of the collision is quite clear though, despite what Rosberg may have said. He went in too fast, sliding both the front wheels and the back ones at various times. The reason he collided was because he over-corrected.

Whatever NR meant by 'deliberate', when he collided with LH he was not under control. I think he just meant that come what may, he wasn't going to back out of the corner.

LH is much better than NR on the brakes and there was no way NR was going to make the corner or, come to that, the pass. It was a dreadful bit of driving. Later on, NR made a mistake on another attempt pass which cost him a pit stop and a probable race win. Poor driving all round.

NR cost the team just about as certain a 1-2 as it is possible to get in F1. That, to the team, will take a fair bit of forgiving.

Whilst I wouldn't want to criticise anyone who follows a driver, and specifically NR, that was just about the most dreadful day's work I've seen him perform. He should be ashamed.

He's given the team the most difficult of problems, one that Ron Dennis couldn't solve. The drivers are now at war with one-another.

And on a small point: my daughter's partner was at Spa and he said that it wasn't just the British fans who were booing. He is a Button follower (I accept there are few drivers who follow Button) but was in with some Ferrari nutters - takes all sorts - many of whom were not British and they too were booing. Indeed he said that most of the polyglot stand were and it was rather muted on the TV.

As to the comparison between NR and LH, I would suggest that with reliability equality, LH would be well ahead in the points. Further, correct me if I'm wrong, but has NR actually beaten LH in a straight fight?

It seems a shame that Bottas' drive is overlooked just because of petulance of the Merc driver. He must be the find of the season. Further, CR is maturing nicely. Unless Ecclestone does something really stupid, the future of F1 in the medium term is assured I think.

A nerd

 

[Bellow]

One of the reasons I don't participate in F1 forums is this sort of posting tone.

Apologies for the tone but not the factual content. Short of another breakdown it's hard to believe LH wasn't lined up for 25 points if NR hadn't taken him out.

Last week Rosberg was in a position where the he could take more risks at the expense of Hamilton given the points positions relative to each other and relative to the other competitors in the WDC.

And given the points deficit NR knew well that LH was going to fight very hard for the win. What NR did at Spa didn't even amount to an attempt at a pass. If it had been an attempt it would have been four wheels banging not nose to tail.

As to the comparison between NR and LH, I would suggest that with reliability equality, LH would be well ahead in the points. Further, correct me if I'm wrong, but has NR actually beaten LH in a straight fight?

In a nutshell DS.


And the 'man up' advice and accusations of 'petulance' re LH are absurd. Yes in the past he has been petulant - I have criticised him for it often enough, but this year he is a completely different man. In a season where given the unreliability of his car and the near complete reliability of his team mate's he could even be forgiven the odd tantrum - none have been evident.

 

[Dryce]

And the 'man up' advice and accusations of 'petulance' re LH are absurd. Yes in the past he has been petulant - I have criticised him for it often enough, but this year he is a completely different man. In a season where given the unreliability of his car and the near complete reliability of his team mate's he could even be forgiven the odd tantrum - none have been evident.

Compare this incident which is not much more than a racing incident with Damon Hill's loss of the 1994 title at Adelaide. Admittedly no twitter or youtube at that time but still plenty of press and media. Damon Hill kept it together in public.

What happened at Spa was a particularly stupid racing incident (nose end plates flying off and resulting punctures are not exactly uncommon).

But it's become a federal case. In part because it was two championship contenders, in part because it was two teammates, in part because of the drivers' self-publicity.

It's not as if LH can't do this sort of thing to a teammate. Remember JB yelling 'What is he doing?' in Canada 2011? LH came off worse in that encounter too.

And on this occasion after the initial incident how much damage was done by LH's lack of self control in the drive back to the pits? yes it's a long lap at Spa but as the team kept reminding him when he wanted to retire there was still a chance of a safety car. I wonder if FA or SV would have perhaps sacrificed some seconds on the way back to the pits to try and ensure the car was in a better condition to recover some points later in the race.

I think LH is rather fragile. A less fragile person would have stayed quiet in public and said what was needed to be said within the team office. The 'petulance' is only a side effect of that fragility.

The loss of points due to DNFs isn't something that can be fixed. It's a fact of life that LH has to live with. As do his fans. Lamenting them doesn't get them back. He has to knuckle down and get on with what he needs to do. LH is paid a ton of money to be a *professional* driver. He has to keep his head or NR or any other reasonably decent team mate will definitely get the better of him.

 

[mat8n]

I watch F1 overseas, Lewis Hamilton does not receive the hype he does in the UK.

Is it because of their nationalities that this debate keeps running?

DS goes on like rosberg was a novice driver! Really?

Neither of them are stand out drivers(yes they are all great), they've had a little tiff and the UK has gone crazy.

The crowd booed rosberg, is that not because of his high and mighty attitude and not the race on the day?

Hamilton is a one time world champion, with his uk hype and his cars/teams he's been in he should be a multiple world champion and he should be doing a vettle this year. He's not and he isn't, yet again he's whining like a spoilt kid in a big man's world.

Button and Alonso used to whine until they grew up.

 

[Derek Smith]

I watch F1 overseas, Lewis Hamilton does not receive the hype he does in the UK.

DS goes on like rosberg was a novice driver! Really?

A friend of mine used to live in Milan. He would return to this country every month and would bring me 'cuttings' from newspapers on F1. There was one national paper that had seven pages on the Italian GP. He said that had Ferrari won it they'd have had more pages in the paper as a whole so they could probably double the column inches on the win.

Alonso's presence in F1 generated 2 GPs in the country.

I don't think hype of a national driver is unique to the UK.

As regards Rosberg: he drove like a rookie at Spa. That lock-up cost him the race. It was a poor choice for a pass.

All drivers have off days. Spa was one for Rosberg. That said, by causing the collision (deliberately or not) he had put more than a little pressure on himself. He could not have been looking forwards to the post-race debrief.

What we should not ignore is that this season, despite there being a car that is 2 secs faster at some circuits, has been one of the most exciting for years. And recently there have been a few great ones. It is making its way towards being a season fans will talk of for years to come.

Let's hope so.

 

[mat8n]

I don't think hype of a national driver is unique to the UK.

This is the big problem I find. Hamilton is a UK driver so the UK think he's the best.

Unfortunately he's not.

 

[Bellow]

Compare this incident which is not much more than a racing incident with Damon Hill's loss of the 1994 title at Adelaide. Admittedly no twitter or youtube at that time but still plenty of press and media. Damon Hill kept it together in public.

What happened at Spa was a particularly stupid racing incident (nose end plates flying off and resulting punctures are not exactly uncommon).

Agreed.

But it's become a federal case. In part because it was two championship contenders, in part because it was two teammates, in part because of the drivers' self-publicity.

Mainly though because NR admitted it was an avoidable collision with a clear motivation behind it. That separates it from the normal racing accidents.

And on this occasion after the initial incident how much damage was done by LH's lack of self control in the drive back to the pits? yes it's a long lap at Spa but as the team kept reminding him when he wanted to retire there was still a chance of a safety car. I wonder if FA or SV would have perhaps sacrificed some seconds on the way back to the pits to try and ensure the car was in a better condition to recover some points later in the race.

Three miles back to the pits even at the speed he drove put him out of contention.
I agreed with LH immediately (around lap#10 IIRC) that retiring the car was what should have been done for all the reasons LH sited. Not least as he is an engine down to NR due to the fire.
It will be at the season's end before we can judge fully (ie if LH loses the WDC to a blown motor) his intention to retire the car, but given that his concern was also in relation to the impact on practice track time that may be required to conserve his remaining engines shows LH to be a mature, thinking driver committed to winning the WDC. The war rather than MB's PR battle.
Honda refusing Senna's request for a fresh engine after feeling a vibration during qualifying comes to mind and we know what happened in the race. Neither was being petulant in their requests.

I think LH is rather fragile. A less fragile person would have stayed quiet in public and said what was needed to be said within the team office. The 'petulance' is only a side effect of that fragility.

Yes, some fragility particularly in previous seasons but there's a step change in his attitude this year and no one is prepared to credit him for this. My suspicion is Niki Lauda (who worked very hard to get LH to join MB - a fact that pours scorn on the continual assertion that NR is the favourite at MB) is mentoring him to good effect.

The loss of points due to DNFs isn't something that can be fixed. It's a fact of life that LH has to live with. As do his fans. Lamenting them doesn't get them back. He has to knuckle down and get on with what he needs to do. LH is paid a ton of money to be a *professional* driver. He has to keep his head or NR or any other reasonably decent team mate will definitely get the better of him.

Yes DNFs are a part of racing life but LH has handled them with some considerable grace. That he questioned if his side of the garage is in some way less adept in their car preparations is valid for a WDC contender.
And knuckle down he has. Twice already he has brought himself back to points parity with NR from being behind by a race wins worth of points on each occasion. What else is expected of him?

What we should not ignore is that this season, despite there being a car that is 2 secs faster at some circuits, has been one of the most exciting for years. And recently there have been a few great ones. It is making its way towards being a season fans will talk of for years to come.

Let's hope so.

Absolutely. Only the confessed deliberate nature of the coming together at Spa clouds what is nothing other than two team mate drivers doing their best to beat the other to the WDC. Without them racing each other it would be the dullest season imaginable.

 

[cb1965]

I think the biggest problem with Lewis Hamilton is the 'baggage' that seems to come with the 'driver'. A lot is media created, but he does also "wear his heart on his sleeve" (I hate that expression but it is apt here) and it shows sometimes when he does daft things like tweeting his telemetry or being persuaded to lie about overtaking under yellows etc.

That said in all my years of watching F1 (nearly 40 now) he is in my personal top 5 drivers I have ever seen behind the wheel of an F1 car in terms of what he can do with a car.

In a rare moment of comment I remember Kimi saying in 2007 that he watched Lewis overtake him and couldn't believe how late he braked and how he managed to balance the car on the apex before disappearing up the road..... and Kimi rarely pays any other driver as much as a passing murmur.

 

[Dryce]

Unfortunately he's not.

But he's not that bad either

The thing about F1 is that you can argue just about anything any way given the variation in machinery, luck, rules, and other complexity.

The use of the term 'raw speed' is a symptom of a sport where the fastest driver in terms of capability is not necessarily actually the fastest driver on the track over race distance.

Personally I rate LH. One of the noticable differences this year is that he seems to be able to best NR and use less fuel and is able to look after his tyres. Is he the best? Well to know that we really need FA and SV (and probably DR) in the same equipment next to him. And that's not going to happen.

 

[mat8n]

Until any driver realises it's not them that is the 'best' it's their car, they all spit the dummy out.

It looks like riccardo has grasped that early. It looks like vettle has grasped that, Alonso, Kimi and button got it a few years ago.

Once they reach that point you don't really see the immature behaviour.

I've never said Hamilton isn't a good driver, he's just not one of the greats.

 

[cb1965]

Personally I rate LH. One of the noticable differences this year is that he seems to be able to best NR and use less fuel and is able to look after his tyres. Is he the best? Well to know that we really need FA and SV (and probably DR) in the same equipment next to him. And that's not going to happen.

Well he was Alonso's equal in 2007 and that is all I need to know as there have been few as good as Alonso!

 

[John Jones Jr]

Well he was Alonso's equal in 2007 and that is all I need to know as there have been few as good as Alonso!

cb '65, do you think that there's a fair chance that Alonso would have the WC all sown up by now if the was driving Mercedes? (Not a loaded question btw )

 

[cb1965]

cb '65, do you think that there's a fair chance that Alonso would have the WC all sown up by now if the was driving Mercedes? (Not a loaded question btw )

Yep I do. I am not his biggest fan in terms of what I know of his persona, but as a driver I don't think there is anyone better on the grid in terms of all round ability.

Lewis is probably faster all things being equal, but rarely are all things equal and I think Alonso has got better every season.

For me the difference is that Alonso just about always seems to get the maximum out of any given situation whereas Lewis can have a full on meltdown if things start to go wrong sadly, although i think he has improved massively on that score this last couple of seasons.

It's like if you take the best bits of Lewis and the best bits of Nico you sort of get Alonso and therefore while he may not have mathematically wrapped it up by ow I think he would be way in front were he in the Mercedes.

I have to also say I admire Alonso's handling of his situation at Ferrari. Many a driver would have thrown their toys right out of the pram by now ... I do think he needs to move though as his talent is being wasted there.

My dream is for he and Lewis to end up as teammates again.... 2007 was a fantastic season and I think given the amount of respect they have for each other now it would be a brilliant and very fair battle.