The EV fact thread

[markjay]

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-ceo-musk-chinese-ev-firms-will-demolish-rivals-without-trade-barriers-2024-01-25/

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk said on Wednesday that Chinese automakers will "demolish" global rivals without trade barriers, underscoring the heat the U.S. electric vehicle market leader faces from the likes of BYD, who are racing to expand worldwide.

Musk's comments come after Warren Buffett-backed BYD - with its cheaper models and a more varied lineup - overtook Tesla as the world's top-selling EV company last quarter, despite the U.S. automaker's deep price cuts through 2023"

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

"I've been working with Mr A for the past 20 years, time after time I've tried in vain to stop him from making the wrong business decisions, but after 20 years he's now worth £100m while I've got just barely enough saved for my retirement, and so I figured that maybe I shouldn't be trying to stop Mr A from making the wrong decisions"

Fair.

 

[BTB 500]

I remember seeing this on here before - £1.5m over 12 years probably isn’t that significant in the grand scheme of things (£125k a year, £342 a day) relative to the cost of running engines on a vessel of that size?

I mean purchasing, servicing, repairs and possibly replacement after a decade or more of service - that’s ignoring any environmental considerations or possible fuel costs etc.

To me it doesn’t seem unreasonable to be replacing batteries after 12 years but perhaps it makes a good story!

I think it's (a) the replacement cost and (b) the 18 month lead time (at least partly due to the original supplier having gone out of business) that make it newsworthy.

All the power comes from onboard diesel engines anyway (AFAIK it's not a plug-in hybrid), so those are still being run/serviced/fuelled as normal - the battery is just an extra storage device (which it can clearly run without). I saw it quoted somewhere that running costs were 250 percent more than an equivalent diesel-only vessel, with emissions only 20% lower. I assume the purchase price was also considerably higher than a conventional ferry if the battery alone has a cost of £1.5m. That plus the charging and control modules and the electric motors & controllers would surely cost more in total than the gearboxes the engines would normally drive.

 

[Noitz]

Even more EU generated EV madness!

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[markjay]

Even more EU generated EV madness!

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I actually agree. We sell laptops, we also maintain and support them, as well as iPhones , and we would have several hundreds of them at any given point of time.

We're getting more and more of these 'no Li-ion batteries' policies making it increasingly difficult and expensive to ship and store these devices.

I understand the concerns regarding the exploding chineses electric scooters' batteries, but this has now become global madness.

 

[Bellow]

That plus the charging and control modules and the electric motors & controllers would surely cost more in total than the gearboxes the engines would normally drive.

Probably not at ferry scale, but the largest of ships bypass the need for gearboxes by having direct drive from engines running at prop compatible speed (80-100 rpm) and, with the engines being 2T, they can be stopped and restarted in reverse rotation for reversing.

 

[Bellow]

We're getting more and more of these 'no Li-ion batteries' policies making it increasingly difficult and expensive to ship and store these devices.

A guy I know who builds battery powered power packs for downhole tools told me that he abandoned Li-Ion batteries for a more conventional type because shipping Li-Ion was becoming problematic. That was three and a half years ago.
He also put a Li-Ion battery in an oven to see what temp it could withstand and what would happen to it. It exploded '' like a bomb'' and ''blew the oven into 100 pieces''.

 

[SmartAmg]

He also put a Li-Ion battery in an oven to see what temp it could withstand and what would happen to it. It exploded '' like a bomb'' and ''blew the oven into 100 pieces''.

No Roast, for him then, that Sunday.

 

[BTB 500]

I actually agree. We sell laptops, we also maintain and support them, as well as iPhones , and we would have several hundreds of them at any given point of time.

We're getting more and more of these 'no Li-ion batteries' policies making it increasingly difficult and expensive to ship and store these devices.

I understand the concerns regarding the exploding chineses electric scooters' batteries, but this has now become global madness.

This new scheme only applies to batteries with a capacity of over 2 kWh though, which is pretty big for most things other than BEVs. E.g. 8 times the size of a typical e-scooter pack (250 Wh), or 40 times the size of an average laptop pack (50 Wh). AFAIK most UPS battery banks are still lead/acid, although there may be other industrial applications that do use big Li packs.

At some point I can see train/ferry or even car park operators wanting to read the status & health of BEV batteries on entry, which something like this would facilitate.

 

[BTB 500]

He also put a Li-Ion battery in an oven to see what temp it could withstand and what would happen to it. It exploded '' like a bomb'' and ''blew the oven into 100 pieces''.

They rapidly emit a large volume of flammable gas, which can result in an explosion if it ignites in an enclosed space e.g.

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In a typical fire though the gas is ignited as soon as it starts to vent, so you get the big jet of flame that you see in many EV fire videos rather than an actual explosion.

 

[Bellow]

No Roast, for him then, that Sunday.

Aye, and you all think you're brave putting engine parts in the dishwasher when the wife's not looking.
The things these guys do bend my mind. They have a 3000:1 reduction gearbox that outputs 531 N.m of torque. It is the size of a packet of Polo Mints.

 

[Dryce]

Plenty of hybrids though that work as you mentioned. There's been a scandal in the Orkneys recently where one needs new batteries at a cost of £1.5 million after 12 years. The lead time is 18 months, during which it will be running exclusively on diesel!

There are two sister vessels to this small ferry - so presumably if it's a general battery wear issue then they will also be due replacements.

My view at the time these ferries were procured was that they are a gimmick.

 

[markjay]

This new scheme only applies to batteries with a capacity of over 2 kWh though, which is pretty big for most things other than BEVs. E.g. 8 times the size of a typical e-scooter pack (250 Wh), or 40 times the size of an average laptop pack (50 Wh). AFAIK most UPS battery banks are still lead/acid, although there may be other industrial applications that do use big Li packs.

At some point I can see train/ferry or even car park operators wanting to read the status & health of BEV batteries on entry, which something like this would facilitate.

The official scheme, yes. But everywhere else, people are going OTT with this.

On a recent BA flight, I as requested to check in my hand luggage, and was asked to remove any items with 'rechargeable batteries'.

I later realised that I left my electric toothbrush in the hand luggage... oh well, we made it safely to our destination - lucky break, I guess

There seem to be no issue with me taking these items onboard with me, but for some reason they could not go in the hold. And, no one asked anything regarding my checked-in suitcases, which went... in the hold.

My point is that people are losing the plot when it comes to rechargeable batteries and fire safety.

 

[BTB 500]

There are two sister vessels to this small ferry - so presumably if it's a general battery wear issue then they will also be due replacements.

My view at the time these ferries were procured was that they are a gimmick.

Yes agreed. Early adoption of new technology always carries risk ... at the very least it will date quickly in terms of efficiency/performance. A self-contained hybrid drive system without regen. braking is presumably never going to be particularly efficient anyway as there's nothing to offset the losses involved in converting mechanical energy to electric power (never mind the extra weight you are hauling around).

 

[Dryce]

My point is that people are losing the plot when it comes to rechargeable batteries and fire safety.

It doesn't help that airlines are somewhat variable in rules and specifications of all aspects of baggage.

(Loads of fun when travelling multisector with more than one airline on the same ticket).

As a general comment - small batteries in devices such as shavers tend not to be what the fuss is about. It tends to be separate batteries and power banks that are the main concern.

Emirates safety video has had a section in it for a while telling passengers who lose their phone in their seat area not to move the seat and to call cabin crew to retrieve it. The fear is the phone and its battery may be damaged. (I suspect they're particularly worried mainly about passengers losing a phone in Business or First where the seats are more complicated and motorised).

 

[BTB 500]

And, no one asked anything regarding my checked-in suitcases, which went... in the hold.

I guess the contents of your suitcases were were scanned / x-rayed though. They are normally quite paranoid as a lithium battery fire down there can be terminal. It's self-sustaining so can't be extinguished by normal means (fire retardant then depressurising the hold to deprive it of oxygen).

 

[BTB 500]

The fear is the phone and its battery may be damaged. (I suspect they're particularly worried mainly about passengers losing a phone in Business or First where the seats are more complicated and motorised).

Yep physical damage to a Li battery by crushing or puncturing is quite likely to start a fire. At least in the cabin it would be immediately obvious, and I assume they'd have a process for isolating a small item or even dumping it overboard in the worst case.

I have lots of lithium packs for radio-controlled aircraft, and store/transport them in fireproof bags or vented metal containers. These won't prevent or extinguish a fire but do significantly reduce the chance of it spreading.

 

[Deleted member 55947]

At least you won’t be electrocuted if you drive into a river
Watch: Tesla Norway fjord crash passengers saved by floating sauna users Tesla fjord crash passengers saved by floating sauna users

 

[BTB 500]

Wonder if that's covered by the warranty

 

[grober]

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IF FOLKS WERE WARY OF EV BATTERY FIRES JUST WAIT TILL THEY GET A WIFF OF LIQUID AMMONIA!

Ammonia: general information

www.gov.uk