The EV fact thread

[clk320x]

Have you any pic of the longest mileage you've done on a single trip without recharging? Fair enough if not what this car is used for, I just wondered.

My friend has today driven from Coalville to EX17 comfortably without recharging or driving slowly in his Model S Performance - The journey is around 4 hours and 200 miles ish of high speed motorway driving. He will then recharge overnight at his families home. (His family live out in the sticks, so this is actually more convenient than looking for a fuel station, or god forbid stopping on route (we all know just how crucial saving a 10 min stop can be! )…

I fail to see any real life scenario where the typical driver would do any more than this without stopping anyway.

Arguments about ‘efficiency’ of recharging make me laugh, what about the poor ‘efficiency’ of the entire basis of an internal combustion engine? What about the efficiency gained by regenerative braking? Braking is such a wasteful loss of energy and once you’ve driven an EV for a meaningful length of time, the first drive in an ICE without regen is a shock.

 

[BTB 500]

True but real range is often not much more than a 100-150 miles at motorway speed (i mean ice motorway speed not geriatric EV motorway speed) and that is a bit too frequent a stop for many

There are EVs around with real-world ranges around the 100 mile mark off motorway. Not everyone will be driving the latest & greatest models with battery packs that are in peak condition, and there are even still some new models with not much more than 100 miles WLTP. If you're in one of those and the range drops by 30% or whatever because its a freezing cold day and you need some heating then unless you're just popping to the corner shop you could be into range anxiety pretty much as soon as you set off. Much less of an issue if you're in a high-spec EV that has 300-400 miles to start with.

2024 eVito van here (WLTP 162 miles, but a lot less on a motorway in cold weather):

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[Bobby Dazzler]

I'm just perplexed by EV owners who always seem to say "look, my dashboard says i can do 400 miles" as if that means any more than the ice driver saying "look my dashboard says I'm doing 70 mpg in my 2 ton estate". Both are tediously inaccurate. Sorry

Totally agree.

I'm just perplexed by EV owners who always seem to say "look, my dashboard says i can do 400 miles" as if that means any more than the ice driver saying "look my dashboard says I'm doing 70 mpg in my 2 ton estate". Both are tediously inaccurate. Sorry

Personally I’ve not seen much EV range showboating in the way you describe it but I don't visit EV forums, I tend to hang out with the haters on forums like this.

I wouldn’t say the trip computer range is inaccurate. I would say the trip computer down’s know what the rest of the journey/tank/charge looks like.

If the driving changes then the range will change, the car cannot fully anticipate all of the variables like different roads, different congestion, different mood of driver, etc.

Hardly a surprise that the range at any one point in time is not going to reflect the reality. The only exception might be very long non-stop night time motorway drives.

When driving to the South of France in the middle of the night, the range in my cars is fairly accurate from start to finish. The rest of the time it’s an i

The trip range is an indication of range if you continue driving in exactly the same way until you run out of the good stuff, not a crystal ball to see the future!

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Hands up who personally drives a low cost, super light, super small footprint, super efficient, city car - regardless of drivetrain - as their primary vehicle for themself.

So cars like Smart Fortwo, Smart ForFour, Renault Twingo, Volkswagen Up!, Suzuki Ignis, Citroen C1, Renault Twizy, Mitsubishi iMIEV, kei cars, etc.

Nobody else? Just @Bellow with his Smart, and even though it was a live affair which lasted 14 years that ended close to 5 years ago. You can add me to the long list of one.

I must admit I am a little confused because there are many vehement comments in this thread - and others - about the imperative for new small lightweight EV city cars, but I am wondering why?

If those people making such comments haven’t buying such cars with ICE propulsion whilst they were abundant both new and used, then why would they buy one if it was an EV?

If we aren’t going to buy them, then who? People who buy ICE city cars probably will, but it’s a small and less-profitable part of the market so why would they be a businesses priority?

 

[markjay]

Have you any pic of the longest mileage you've done on a single trip without recharging? Fair enough if not what this car is used for, I just wondered.

The longest journey I've personally ever done in the EV was a couple of years back, all I can remember is that I had 30% when I got back home. Not sure what the mileage was. I am planning to drive the EV to Switzerland in April (I started a separate thread about it), and will post stats along the way. I do not have any long journey planned before that.

 

[markjay]

I'm just perplexed by EV owners who always seem to say "look, my dashboard says i can do 400 miles" as if that means any more than the ice driver saying "look my dashboard says I'm doing 70 mpg in my 2 ton estate". Both are tediously inaccurate. Sorry

I explained earlier that I am calculating the range in mileage for a full battery based on the energy consumption info displayed on the dash, and I did say that if the consumption info is incorrect then obviously my calculations will yield an inaccurate figure.

I have no other way to measure how much kWh was actually used, or if the distance covered is accurate.

I could of course get myself one of them clever OBDII dongles that interogate the battery directly and bypass the car's dash software, and I could calculate the real distance covered via GPS data, but I won't.... posting the dash info is as much effort as I am personally willing to do regarding this topic....

EDIT: I also pointed out that I am calculating the range based on a 77kWh battery, which is what you'll get if you buy an IONIQ 5 today, as opposed to the smaller 74kWh battery that my early 2021 model came with.

 

[markjay]

There are EVs around with real-world ranges around the 100 mile mark off motorway. Not everyone will be driving the latest & greatest models with battery packs that are in peak condition, and there are even still some new models with not much more than 100 miles WLTP. If you're in one of those and the range drops by 30% or whatever because its a freezing cold day and you need some heating then unless you're just popping to the corner shop you could be into range anxiety pretty much as soon as you set off. Much less of an issue if you're in a high-spec EV that has 300-400 miles to start with.

2024 eVito van here (WLTP 162 miles, but a lot less on a motorway in cold weather):

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The most recent dash info I posted today shows an average speed of 10mph. That's typical in central London. If I drive 4 hours non-stop, I will still cover only 40 miles......

If you live in an urban area, and rarely do long journeys, why would you want to pay for a heavy battery, then pay for electricity to propel the dead weight on daily basis, not to mention put a small additional strain on the already-limited supply of rare earth minerals? It makes no sense to buy and 'shlep' around an 800Kg 70+kWh battery if the most you drive in a day is (say) 30-40 miles, if that.

Personally, I went for the bigger battery because we were planning to drive to France (and Italy), taking our dog along, as I did many times with my ICE car before. However our travel plans didn't materlise so far, for a variety of reasons - hopefully it will finally happen this April.

There's definitely room in the market for EVs with smaller batteries. It makes perfect sense.

EDIT: If 'range anxiety' makes people buy cars equipped with bigger batteries than they actually need, then it's clearly counterproductive.

 

[BTB 500]

I must admit I am a little confused because there are many vehement comments in this thread - and others - about the imperative for new small lightweight EV city cars, but I am wondering why?

I guess at least partly for financial reasons, on the assumption that a small car with a small battery will be significantly cheaper (both new and used). A large majority of multi-car households could probably manage fine with at least one being a small car with limited range primarily for local use.

I'm personally quite a fan of small cars having owned at least six of them over the years. They're usually quite fun to drive, licence-friendly (i.e. feel faster than they actually are), easy to park, cheap to run and insure, etc. Can't justify one at the moment as we need two larger vehicles.

 

[Bellow]

Nobody else? Just @Bellow with his Smart, and even though it was a live affair which lasted 14 years that ended close to 5 years ago. You can add me to the long list of one.

I must admit I am a little confused because there are many vehement comments in this thread - and others - about the imperative for new small lightweight EV city cars, but I am wondering why?

If those people making such comments haven’t buying such cars with ICE propulsion whilst they were abundant both new and used, then why would they buy one if it was an EV?

If we aren’t going to buy them, then who? People who buy ICE city cars probably will, but it’s a small and less-profitable part of the market so why would they be a businesses priority?

The reason I advocate for small EVs is affordability and, ease of recharging (smaller battery, shorter recharging time releasing lamp post chargers for others, small physical footprint eases that too).

 

[markjay]

The reason I advocate for small EVs is affordability and, ease of recharging (smaller battery, shorter recharging time releasing lamp post chargers for others, small physical footprint eases that too).

And it will be better all around if cars don't hoard (in their batteries) more of the rare minerals than is actually needed..... not to mention recycling.

 

[Bellow]

My friend has today driven from Coalville to EX17 comfortably without recharging or driving slowly in his Model S Performance - The journey is around 4 hours and 200 miles ish of high speed motorway driving.

50 mph ''high speed''?

He will then recharge overnight at his families home. (His family live out in the sticks, so this is actually more convenient than looking for a fuel station, or god forbid stopping on route (we all know just how crucial saving a 10 min stop can be! )…

That 10 mins bollox again. Time your 10 mins connected to the charger but include the time taken coming off the road and again to re-join it. 10 minutes my ****.

Arguments about ‘efficiency’ of recharging make me laugh, what about the poor ‘efficiency’ of the entire basis of an internal combustion engine? What about the efficiency gained by regenerative braking? Braking is such a wasteful loss of energy and once you’ve driven an EV for a meaningful length of time, the first drive in an ICE without regen is a shock.

Until all of the electricity is from renewables - today 42% is from fossil fuels - efficiency matters a great deal. EVs only exist to reduce CO2 emissions. They need to work at that. No reason whatsoever that an EV should face less scrutiny regarding its efficiency than ICE.

 

[BTB 500]

My friend has today driven from Coalville to EX17 comfortably without recharging or driving slowly in his Model S Performance - The journey is around 4 hours and 200 miles ish of high speed motorway driving. He will then recharge overnight at his families home.

That's great. Obviously not quite so good if it wasn't possible to recharge (for free, presumably) at his destination though.

(we all know just how crucial saving a 10 min stop can be! )…

Ah yes, the famous 10 minute charge that only adds 10 minutes to your journey. A standard option on the Tesla Model 'USS Enterprise' that can drop out of warp speed and stop dead next to a vacant charger directly on the shortest route, start charging instantaneously, then in the blink of an eye accelerate back up to warp speed as if nothing had happened. Meanwhile back on planet Earth ...

I fail to see any real life scenario where the typical driver would do any more than this without stopping anyway.

Probably not, but as mentioned being able to recharge at your destination is a lot more convenient than having to make another stop somewhere else just to charge. If you want to do 400+ high speed miles on the motorway a "10 minute stop" (real world, 5 minute charge at most) isn't going to cut it

Arguments about ‘efficiency’ of recharging make me laugh

If we have a Tesla driver finally admitting that charging losses really exist then at least we're making progress

 

[clk320x]

That 10 mins bollox again. Time your 10 mins connected to the charger but include the time taken coming off the road and again to re-join it. 10 minutes my ****.

Is your imaginary hydrogen station on the hard shoulder?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

A large majority of multi-car households could probably manage fine with at least one being a small car with limited range primarily for local use.

I couldn’t agree more. So I wonder why there are so many posts in this thread about EVs generally - and EVs with limited range specifically - with a negative tone?

I dare say that there are more multi-car households than single car households on this forum, but very seem to think aN EV with limited range is a good idea.

There are plenty of small affordable EVs with limite range, like the Smart ForFour. There are plenty of medium size affordable EVs with limited range like the Nissan Leaf.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The reason I advocate for small EVs is affordability and, ease of recharging (smaller battery, shorter recharging time releasing lamp post chargers for others, small physical footprint eases that too).

Me too, it’s the logical solution, because the majority of journeys by the majority of people are short. Very short. And many of those are in multi-car households.

And whilst it’s not true for all, a relatively large number of people do have off street parking or another means of easily charging an EV, and a second car in the household..

There are such cars available - like ForFour and Zoe - but very few people on this forum are buying them, despite the many posts calling for them. Strange.

 

[clk320x]

That's great. Obviously not quite so good if it wasn't possible to recharge (for free, presumably) at his destination though.

Why does it matter if it’s free? Are diesel or (non-existent) hydrogen cars free to run?

Ah yes, the famous 10 minute charge that only adds 10 minutes to your journey. A standard option on the Tesla Model 'USS Enterprise' that can drop out of warp speed and stop dead next to a vacant charger directly on the shortest route, start charging instantaneously, then in the blink of an eye accelerate back up to warp speed as if nothing had happened. Meanwhile back on planet Earth ...

What difference is that to a fuel station or the non-existent hydrogen stations in some peoples dreams? You still have to come off the motorway and go to a filling station, hope it’s open (no car satnav will show availability of pumps/queuing times) and then stand outside whilst filling before going inside to queue behind shoppers and pay.

Probably not, but as mentioned being able to recharge at your destination is a lot more convenient than having to make another stop somewhere else just to charge. If you want to do 400+ high speed miles on the motorway a "10 minute stop" (real world, 5 minute charge at most) isn't going to cut it

Ah yes 400+ miles of high speed motorway miles in the UK, a regular occurrence without breaks of course.

If we have a Tesla driver finally admitting that charging losses really exist then at least we're making progress

I’ve never even thought about it, because it’s such an irrelevant point and doesn’t affect me whatsoever costs wise as I only recharge on off-peak rates and never pay more than £3.15 for a 7kW charger to push power into the car for 6 hours - but thanks for worrying about it for me.

I’m interested to know the efficiency of refuelling an ICE, what about the electricity to run the pumps, fuel station lighting etc… How far does this argument go? Is it about what actually impacts the end user or do you go deep into the nitty gritty points to try and make a point?

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Ah yes, the famous 10 minute charge that only adds 10 minutes to your journey. A standard option on the Tesla Model 'USS Enterprise' that can drop out of warp speed and stop dead next to a vacant charger directly on the shortest route, start charging instantaneously, then in the blink of an eye accelerate back up to warp speed as if nothing had happened. Meanwhile back on planet Earth ...

Sunny that neutralised by an ICE needing to do the same to refuel? All cars need to. Does it really add much time?

Let’s assume it’s a motorway.

20-30 seconds on exit slip ramp
60-120 seconds on the forecourt
20-30 seconds on the entry slip ramp

Let’s call it 2-3 minutes.

 

[markjay]

...Until all of the electricity is from renewables - today 42% is from fossil fuels - efficiency matters a great deal. EVs only exist to reduce CO2 emissions. They need to work at that. No reason whatsoever that an EV should face less scrutiny regarding its efficiency than ICE.

If you sell only cars powered by electricity, you can gradually move to renewable energy without forcing motorists to change cars again. Eventually, we'll get to 100% renewable energy.

If you keep selling ICE cars... then cars will never be powered by renewable energy.

 

[clk320x]

If you sell only cars powered by electricity, you can gradually move to renewable energy without forcing motorists to change cars again. Eventually, we'll get to 100% renewable energy.

If you keep selling ICE cars... then cars will never be powered by renewable energy.

I’ve tried to make this point multiple times but it falls on deaf ears.

Something about hydrogen…

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Sunny that neutralised by an ICE needing to do the same to refuel? All cars need to. Does it really add much time?

Let’s assume it’s a motorway.

20-30 seconds on exit slip ramp
60-120 seconds on the forecourt
20-30 seconds on the entry slip ramp

Let’s call it 2-3 minutes.

Sunny = Surely.

Blooming Siri