The EV fact thread

[Smiley]

It does highlight the issue with knowingly intentionally taking a risk on the future value of a product with unknown market history, which is effectively what Hertz did.

Personally, I would only recommend getting a new EV on a lease (business or personal), that takes into account estimated depreciation - i.e. let the finance provider take the risk regarding future value, calculating risk is their job.

The obvious issue is that no one knows by how much prices of new EVs will fall in future. If manufacturing cost do go down over the next few years, as is often the case with new tech, then second hand prices will clearly suffer. I believe it's too much of a risk for a private owner to take on what is typically the second most valuable asset the average consumer will ever own.

If leasing a new EV isn't for you, then buying a second hand OLDER ICE EV is the safer option here - the bulk of the depreciation has already been incurred by the first THREE OR FOUR owner, and the risk is now much lower as you can only lose that much in a worst-case scenario.

I've fixed your statement for those who wish to minimise depreciation. It looks to me like there is no stopping the continuing heavy depreciation of EVs.

 

[markjay]

Know the area well. Mind you’d need plenty of lampost chargers for the residents there …..

View attachment 153455

True. The newer buildings all have underground car parks, and the council towers have off-street parking.

 

[pmcgsmurf]

We have an electric ID3 (leased) that my better half uses daily.

1. It's brilliant, can have it warm and cosy before getting in, get 40 miles for £1, great Benefit in Kind from the taxman and it's also filled with great tech.

2. It's rubbish, pain to drive more than 200 miles due to charging so we keep the little ICE car for the long journeys.

Don't think I'd buy one (yet) but it serves a good purpose for all the local journeys that the wife does on a daily basis.

 

[markjay]

We have an electric ID3 (leased) that my better half uses daily.

1. It's brilliant, can have it warm and cosy before getting in, get 40 miles for £1, great Benefit in Kind from the taxman and it's also filled with great tech.

2. It's rubbish, pain to drive more than 200 miles due to charging so we keep the little ICE car for the long journeys.

Don't think I'd buy one (yet) but it serves a good purpose for all the local journeys that the wife does on a daily basis.

If you can do 200 miles for £5, with a charging stop, but still prefer the ICE car for longer journeys in spite of the higher fuel cost (~£25 for 200 miles) just to avoid the stop, then the EV incentives are clearly insufficient.... so either the EV energy cost should be reduced further (more subsidy / even less tax), or the cost of petrol and Diesel isn't taxed high enough... or both

 

[BTB 500]

We have an electric ID3 (leased) that my better half uses daily.

1. It's brilliant, can have it warm and cosy before getting in, get 40 miles for £1

If you're charging at home the mileage will certainly be very cheap compared to an ICE car, but possibly not quite as good as you think. As discussed here at some length if that £1 for 40 miles is based on consumption data reported by the car then it doesn't include the mains kWh lost while charging, or used to get the car warm and cosy before leaving. Both of which you will also have paid for.

Looking at the independent testing done by ADAC in Germany the ID.3 is actually pretty good ... the charging loss they measured using a wall box was only 12-13% (depending on the model). Worst case was the electric Mini Cooper, where 37.6 kWh was needed to charge the 28.9 kWh (usable capacity) battery ... a loss of 30%. Wall boxes are more efficient than a 'granny' cable run from a 240V domestic socket - losses are even higher with those due to the low charge rate (there's a fixed overhead in powering the 12V systems in the car used while charging, so the longer they run for the more power they consume).

If you pre-heat/precondition before leaving the mains power used for this is very variable, depending on the ambient temperature and size of the particular car/battery. The only specific example I've seen quoted was 2 kWh for a Tesla Model 3 at a few degrees C (duration approx. 40 mins IIRC). ADAC's testing is done at a controlled temperature of 23C and AFAIK they don't look at pre-heating.

 

[Bellow]

If you can do 200 miles for £5, with a charging stop, but still prefer the ICE car for longer journeys in spite of the higher fuel cost (~£25 for 200 miles) just to avoid the stop, then the EV incentives are clearly insufficient.... so either the EV energy cost should be reduced further (more subsidy / even less tax), or the cost of petrol and Diesel isn't taxed high enough... or both

In other words, degrade the ICE experience to match that of the EV. Including further cost to ICE owners (irrespective of if they can afford to buy/lease an EV) to further subsidise EVs.
Improving the EV experience would be more appropriate but the direction of travel is clear for all to see.

 

[Mactech]

When I charge the little i3 on it's granny charger, I can't measure any loss in the system. The kWh's I get in the car correlate almost exactly with what I see used from the solar system and the back up of the mains supply. There is no heat anywhere in the chain of supply that I can detect.
I'm not saying there is no loss, but with the tools available to me, (the car battery state, the solar charge amount and the meter on mains usage) I can't measure it, or at least it is within experimental error.
I won't even go near the efficiency of the fuel used in my 'wood burning' Macan, but I will say that the change from Norfolk sunshine to effective EV transport has 'minimal' losses....

 

[BTB 500]

When I charge the little i3 on it's granny charger, I can't measure any loss in the system. The kWh's I get in the car correlate almost exactly with what I see used from the solar system and the back up of the mains supply. There is no heat anywhere in the chain of supply that I can detect.
I'm not saying there is no loss, but with the tools available to me, (the car battery state, the solar charge amount and the meter on mains usage) I can't measure it, or at least it is within experimental error.

Something wrong there ... at the very least you're powering the charge control systems in the car for the entire duration of the charge - that's all lost energy. Then there are losses in the AC to DC conversion as well - they're normally significant enough that the onboard charge unit in the car would need to be actively cooled.

Checking the ADAC review on the i3 their testing reported 48.8 kWh consumed from the mains to charge the 38 kWh (usable capacity) battery, which is a loss of 28.4%. But of course if you're using your own free solar energy to charge this really isn't an issue.

BMW i3 im Test: Batterie, Reichweite, Verbrauch, Preis

Der BMW i3 wurde eingestellt. Für Gebrauchtwagenkäufer ist der i3 aber weiterhin interessant. ADAC Test.

www.adac.de

 

[pmcgsmurf]

If you can do 200 miles for £5, with a charging stop, but still prefer the ICE car for longer journeys in spite of the higher fuel cost (~£25 for 200 miles) just to avoid the stop, then the EV incentives are clearly insufficient.... so either the EV energy cost should be reduced further (more subsidy / even less tax), or the cost of petrol and Diesel isn't taxed high enough... or both

There in lays the problem, we have never in almost a year charged anywhere except home.

9p per kWh at home against 40p and upwards at a service station, simply does not make any sense in our situation so yes the incentives are not there.

 

[BTB 500]

I'm not saying there is no loss, but with the tools available to me, (the car battery state, the solar charge amount and the meter on mains usage) I can't measure it, or at least it is within experimental error.

Just as an aside the data from our solar installation can definitely be a bit flaky. We have a real-time display in the kitchen which is normally set to show 'net power', i.e. power being used minus power being generated. So this is normally negative during the day (the more negative the better!), and positive at night when virtually no power is being generated. Generally this responds exactly as you'd expect as the sun comes in/out or you turn appliances on or off. But I've certainly seen odd things happening on occasion, for example turning the electric kettle or toaster on after dark causing the net power to go negative rather than more positive. The only things I trust are the three physical meter displays (generated kWh, exported kWh and imported kWh).

 

[markjay]

If you're charging at home the mileage will certainly be very cheap compared to an ICE car, but possibly not quite as good as you think. As discussed here at some length if that £1 for 40 miles is based on consumption data reported by the car then it doesn't include the mains kWh lost while charging, or used to get the car warm and cosy before leaving. Both of which you will also have paid for.

Looking at the independent testing done by ADAC in Germany the ID.3 is actually pretty good ... the charging loss they measured using a wall box was only 12-13% (depending on the model). Worst case was the electric Mini Cooper, where 37.6 kWh was needed to charge the 28.9 kWh (usable capacity) battery ... a loss of 30%. Wall boxes are more efficient than a 'granny' cable run from a 240V domestic socket - losses are even higher with those due to the low charge rate (there's a fixed overhead in powering the 12V systems in the car used while charging, so the longer they run for the more power they consume).

If you pre-heat/precondition before leaving the mains power used for this is very variable, depending on the ambient temperature and size of the particular car/battery. The only specific example I've seen quoted was 2 kWh for a Tesla Model 3 at a few degrees C (duration approx. 40 mins IIRC). ADAC's testing is done at a controlled temperature of 23C and AFAIK they don't look at pre-heating.

Why would you want to include cabin pre-heating in the energy cost-per-mile calculation?

 

[ALFAitalia]

Too be fair it is included in ICE mpg.....

 

[markjay]

Too be fair it is included in ICE mpg.....

Not if you trickle-charge the 12v battery overnight...

 

[ALFAitalia]

LOL.....never need to do that.....and even If I did my car would still not be warm! It takes fuel from the engine to do that....although heat is more of a by product than an expense......

 

[markjay]

LOL.....never need to do that.....and even If I did my car would still not be warm! It takes fuel from the engine to do that....although heat is more of a by product than an expense......

If you set an ICE car to preheating the cabin, does it actually start the engine? I thought it would use the battery to heat the cabin. If it does start the engine, is it running until the coolant warms up? Never had an ICE car posh enough to have cabin preheating...

 

[ALFAitalia]

No such thing AFAIK. Block heaters like they use in cold countries are about it.....and if course they use electric.

 

[Petrol Pete]

OK, but this will still be classified as less convenient than simply driving straight home and skipping the trip to the petrol station altogether - as my original post suggested, there are some circumstances where refueling is more convenient, and there are also some circumstances where charging is the more convenient of the two.

Personally, I charge my car on the lamppost in front of my house, where it's parked overnight, and have never needed so far to charge it halfway through a journey (I have never done a 250-300miles journey in this car), and so for me - and for anyone else in my circumstances - simply plugging-in the car where it's parked for the night, as oppsed to driving to a petrol station, is considerably more convenient.

But granted, if you regularly drive long distances beyond your car's range, then stopping at a petrol station will be more convenient than charging along the route.

What do you do when someone is parked in front of the lamp post ?

 

[markjay]

What do you do when someone is parked in front of the lamp post ?

 

[Mactech]

Just as an aside the data from our solar installation can definitely be a bit flaky. We have a real-time display in the kitchen which is normally set to show 'net power', i.e. power being used minus power being generated. So this is normally negative during the day (the more negative the better!), and positive at night when virtually no power is being generated. Generally this responds exactly as you'd expect as the sun comes in/out or you turn appliances on or off. But I've certainly seen odd things happening on occasion, for example turning the electric kettle or toaster on after dark causing the net power to go negative rather than more positive. The only things I trust are the three physical meter displays (generated kWh, exported kWh and imported kWh).

I have the twin meters in the kitchen showing solar generation and grid usage. The only time I can get a proper read is when I charge overnight in the dark..which is rare. The only fudge factor is then the average house usage for a typical day that month which is subtracted from the overall usage, which is mainly car charging. That eliminates the solar content of any charging.
But using that data, I still have little or no divergence from what energy the car then has in the battery, and what we supply from the mains.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Power loss in electric car charging | GRID

Are you aware how much charge your electric car consumes? Sure, you think, the consumption is clearly indicated by the on-board computer. But unfortunately, that's not the whole truth.

grid.com