The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

Et voilla.

Not cheap enough but still inexpensive compared to the majority of EVs but neither sold well.

The Nano was hyped massively but appears to have been a failure.

I haven't looked up figures for tuk-tuks. But it might be worth looking at them as a counter example - as they are cheap and minimal - and there are both ICE and EV versions being actively sold in the countries where they are popular.

 

[markjay]

But mainly due to very low labour costs and development and infrastructure costs funded by Chinese government.

To some extent, sure. But ultimately the basics apply everything - a simple no-frills electric car with a small battery and relying on existing tech will always be cheaper to make than a comparable ICE cars. Add to this the situation in China as you describe it, amplifying the effects and soon we'll be in a situation where EVs pose a greater risk to the planet than ICE cars, simply because everyone can afford one (or more).

 

[190]

Isn't that what Citroen's Ami was for?

The Citroen Ami isn't a proper car.

The Dacia Spring is a proper car and is due here this year at £17,000. It will sell like hot cakes if that turns out to be the true price.

New-look £17k Dacia Spring revealed ahead of UK launch | Autocar

I expect the cheap Chinese cars will be of a similar size to the Spring but poorer quality. I remember when Chinese motorcycles arrived some years ago at half the price of a similar Honda 125 but the Chinese bikes were utter rubbish by comparison and fell apart inside 12 months. They represented very poor value for money and the buyer really should have bought a used Honda. Of course they got better as time went on but never did match Honda quality. I expect the Chinese cars will be the same, viable transport but not a match for a European or Japanese equivalent.

A 2nd area of concern is China dumping subsidised cars in Europe. China's economy is in big trouble with persistent deflation and they will be looking for EV exports to help them get out of their current financial difficulties. I think we should not sit back and allow European car manufacturing to suffer due to Subsidised imports.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Et voilla.

Not cheap enough but still inexpensive compared to the majority of EVs but neither sold well.

View attachment 153653

View attachment 153652

The reason for picking those two examples is that both were amongst the least expensive EVs on sale in the UK, and both had an ICE and and EV version.

 

[markjay]

The Nano was hyped massively but appears to have been a failure.

I haven't looked up figures for tuk-tuks. But it might be worth looking at them as a counter example - as they are cheap and minimal - and there are both ICE and EV versions being actively sold in the countries where they are popular.

The G-Weez was very minimal (officially classed as a quad bike) and was quite popular around London back in the day (with people charging them using extension leads across the pavement - some things don't change...).

 

[SmartAmg]

Isn't that what Citroen's Ami was for?

Not really, not practical enough, talking about proper 4 seater, practical car, for around town and perhaps further afield occasionally. Not a niche model.

 

[davymead]

Reading avidly as I do, I just can’t see the supposedly inevitable panned out future for electric vehicle manufacture.
Even the relentless Chinese are running themselves into very severe financial problems churning out vehicles that people obviously do not want at seemingly any price. Governmental subsidies cannot be sustainable over an extended period, allegedly while people change their thinking. Couple that with the realisation that the so called ‘net zero’ revolution is a financial impossibility to achieve, with figures now being bandied about that simply beggar belief.
China, even in its hugely advantageous position of possessing almost all of the rare minerals needed for future EV production, and a seamlessly cheap and available workforce, are seemingly unable to turn a sustainable profit.

 

[Dryce]

Not really, not practical enough, talking about proper 4 seater, practical car, for around town and perhaps further afield occasionally. Not a niche model.

Maybe they should sell the Ami with the facility to pair them up with coupling bar and disabling controls in the rear unit to allow the coupled unit to be driven as a single unit.

A household could then acquire a pair and treat as a single 4 door 4 seater or a pair of 2 door 2 seaters.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

A household could then acquire a pair and treat as a single 4 door 4 seater or a pair of 2 door 2 seaters.

A great idea, but if it is believed that people won’t drive one EV, then jt seems even more unlikely that they’ll drive two EVs which can be connected to make one EV.

 

[markjay]

The G-Weez was very minimal (officially classed as a quad bike) and was quite popular around London back in the day (with people charging them using extension leads across the pavement - some things don't change...).

And it can tow!

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[190]

Well here's an interesting fact - the stall in EV sales was reasonably predictable which perhaps explains why it's happening in other countries at the same time.

A chap called EM Rogers modelled new technology uptake and found it follows a bell curve.

Of the five types of people identified in Rogers’ bell curve, innovators and early adopters account for just 16% - the exact figure the UK’s electric car has stalled at en route to the legislated 80% needed by 2030 ....innovators and early adopters combined make up 16% and are followed by a 34% early majority and a 34% late majority, before 16% of 'laggards’ bringing up the rear.

Some 60 years ago, American farmers stalled at this point in their willingness to adopt new technologies to aid farming methods, and as Rogers’ theory has shown, many other industries since have witnessed similar stagnation of innovation.

So why has this stall taken politicians and car manufacturers so much by surprise. Even Mercedes have had to row back on an earlier pledge to phase out IC's and said they will now produce them for some time to come.

Unfortunately the link below is a £200/ year subscription but you should be able to read some of it.

History shows appetite can return for electric cars | Autocar

 

[clk320x]

Unfortunately the link below is a £200/ year subscription but you should be able to read some of it.

https://archive.is/20240223175826/https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/business-electric-vehicles/history-shows-appetite-can-return-electric-cars

 

[Dryce]

Reading avidly as I do, I just can’t see the supposedly inevitable panned out future for electric vehicle manufacture.

Maybe it depends on how people react over the long term.

I wonder if we will see a gradual overall reduction in the number of cars per household and their use.

 

[Petrol Pete]

It appears that the head sheds at Daimler have woken up and smelled the coffee.... Shame they won't make another V8 ICE.

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[MikeInWimbledon]

The G-Weez was very minimal (officially classed as a quad bike) and was quite popular around London back in the day (with people charging them using extension leads across the pavement - some things don't change...).

The G-Wiz enjoyed a moment in the sun until there were some well-publicised crashes in which the driver was crushed to smithereens. One woman while on the phone saying "Oh, dear, I seem to have made a mistake."

Scientist died after G-Wiz car imploded as she drove to child's school for parents' evening

Judit Nagy, 47, died when her tiny electric car, a G-Wiz, collided with a Skoda Octavia as she made her way to the parents' evening of one of her four children.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The good thing about the (global) anti-EV scepticism is that it calls for a regulatory rethink.

Could 2024 see Trump and the EU build trade walls against Chinese EV's, and a regulatory / tax push towards affordable hybrids for all, rather than EV's for the wealthy?

Most of the world's going to elections this year, and cost of living and EV hatred will be high on the tabloid agenda.

 

[markjay]

The G-Wiz enjoyed a moment in the sun until there were some well-publicised crashes in which the driver was crushed to smithereens. One woman while on the phone saying "Oh, dear, I seem to have made a mistake."

Scientist died after G-Wiz car imploded as she drove to child's school for parents' evening

Judit Nagy, 47, died when her tiny electric car, a G-Wiz, collided with a Skoda Octavia as she made her way to the parents' evening of one of her four children.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Ouch. And she was on her phone and not wearing her seatbelt at the time of the crash. But yes, in a car - rather than a 'quadricycle' - she might have survived.

 

[markjay]

The good thing about the (global) anti-EV scepticism is that it calls for a regulatory rethink.

Could 2024 see Trump and the EU build trade walls against Chinese EV's, and a regulatory / tax push towards affordable hybrids for all, rather than EV's for the wealthy?

Most of the world's going to elections this year, and cost of living and EV hatred will be high on the tabloid agenda.

It would be a Western economy going around in circles.

We in the West want a higher standard of living for our people. And we want to eradicate poverty. So we up wages and legislate employees' rights, pushing production costs up and pushing manufacturing out of Western countries and into the East.

But have no fear, we can still all enjoy a great life here in the West, because we import cheap fruit and veg and coffee and cocoa beans from places where workers don't enjoy the same benefits as we do, we import cheap garments and cheap electronic devices from places where employees do not have the right to work no more than 45 hours a week, do not get 5 weeks of paid holiday each year, are not protected by anti-discrimination legislation, and do not have a workplace pension plan. Problem solved.

But hand on, we can't let China flood us with cheap goods, it's not good for our economy, so let's put up a big great trade wall between us and them and start manufacturing stuff right here at home, just like we did in the good old days.

Yes it will cost more to make, and yes prices of goods will be higher , and the standard of living will go down, but what price Freedom. So we package it in an ideology called Patriotism and sell it to the public.

Next, we have austerity. But we are Patriots, right? It's for the greater good. Eventually people rebel, and someone comes up with the brilliant idea of economic Liberalism, removing trade barriers and importing cheap stuff from China. And there was much rejoicing.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Ouch. And she was on her phone and not wearing her seatbelt at the time of the crash. But yes, in a car - rather than a 'quadricycle' - she might have survived.

In the Quadricycle's defence, when a Princess chose not to wear a seatbelt in the back seat one of the safest cars in the world, she also paid the price

But it was big and nasty PR for the G-Wiz, comparable to the bad PR from the Ami's Monaco crash, which was all about stupid people doing stupid things..

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It would be a Western economy going around in circles.

We in the West want a higher standard of living for our people. And we want to eradicate poverty. So we up wages and legislate employees' rights, pushing production costs up and pushing manufacturing out of Western countries and into the East.

But have no fear, we can still all enjoy a great life here in the West, because we import cheap fruit and veg and coffee and cocoa beans from places where workers don't enjoy the same benefits as we do, we import cheap garments and cheap electronic devices from places where employees do not have the right to work no more than 45 hours a week, do not get 5 weeks of paid holiday each year, are not protected by anti-discrimination legislation, and do not have a workplace pension plan. Problem solved.

But hand on, we can't let China flood us with cheap goods, it's not good for our economy, so let's put up a big great trade wall between us and them and start manufacturing stuff right here at home, just like we did in the good old days.

Yes it will cost more to make, and yes prices of goods will be higher , and the standard of living will go down, but what price Freedom. So we package it in an ideology called Patriotism and sell it to the public.

Next, we have austerity. But we are Patriots, right? It's for the greater good. Eventually people rebel, and someone comes up with the brilliant idea of economic Liberalism, removing trade barriers and importing cheap stuff from China. And there was much rejoicing.

I agree with you 100%, as I type on my SE Asian made MacBook wearing my SE Asian clothes, listening to my AirPods.

But my point is that there's a massive push back from people who don't give a stuff about Kyoto.

And a European car industry that's facing a Tsunami of imports, while the Americans are just reaching for their handguns.

A compromise could be an interim push to hybrids, using the logic that a faster spread of hybrids could reduce CO2 faster than persuading rednecks to give up their diesels and V8's.