The EV fact thread

[markjay]

Nope, WhatCar did exactly that.

82% of the mileage was done at steady speeds on a flat circular test track.

As I said, right at the beginning, compare like for like, ICE to EV. Don't misquote performance in disadvantaged conditions: cold, high speed driving, with heaters on at 21 degrees C.

I used to get 9mpg from my W210 E55 during December and January on the 2 mile School run in near freezing temperatures. But that 170 mile tank range wasn't any reason to sue Mercedes for false claims.



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1998 E55: Real world range: 170 miles (17 gallons)

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I am satisfied that What Car? successfully emulated a typical driving style... for some.

The other point to consider is that there shouldn't be an automatic assumption that just because the actual mileage in the typical driving style is lower than advertised, the EV is usuable for that scenario. Some people refuse the entertain a re-charging stop, while for others this is absolutely fine.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Interesting interview with James May:

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Got lots of sympathy for his view but, dear lord, what kind of technical expert doesn't know how to put his headphones on the right way round?

And why is James arguing that 20 million EV's by 2050 will need "millions" of chargers across the UK ? Seriously? Think about it.

Average mileage per week in the UK is 160 miles.

Why would ten EV's need the equivalent of one charger in existence to give each of those ten enough charge to do 160 miles?

That's 15 minutes a week on a Tesla charger, or 30 minutes on a 50Kwh charger.

So a Tesla charger can service ten cars a week in 150 minutes. A 50 kWh charger could do it's week's work in 300 minutes.

(These are 'current' charge rates in 2024. James is assuming that charging rates won't get any faster in the next 26 years.)

And all of this is irrelevant for people with a driveway, who will be charging overnight at home

 

[markjay]

Got lots of sympathy for his view but, dear lord, what kind of technical expert doesn't know how to put his headphones on the right way round?

And why is James arguing that 20 million EV's by 2050 will need "millions" of chargers across the UK ? Seriously? Think about it.

Average mileage per week in the UK is 160 miles.

Why would ten EV's need the equivalent of one charger in existence to give each of those ten enough charge to do 160 miles?

That's 15 minutes a week on a Tesla charger, or 30 minutes on a 50Kwh charger.

So a Tesla charger can service ten cars a week in 150 minutes. A 50 kWh charger could do it's week's work in 300 minutes.

(These are 'current' charge rates in 2024. James is assuming that charging rates won't get any faster in the next 26 years.)

And all of this is irrelevant for people with a driveway, who will be charging overnight at home

I would also add that in my particular circumstances the range is irrelevant, I typically charge the car every other week anyway, and in my case if I have to charge it instead once every week, it wouldn't be an issue anyway. And so, again, the WLTP Vs real life range is always good to know, but not always relevant.

 

[BTB 500]

Nope, WhatCar did exactly that.

82% of the mileage was done at steady speeds on a flat circular test track.

Transitioning from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, then 70 to zero isn't steady speed driving - it's (I assume) a pattern that attempts to replicate real-world usage (including 30 mph stop/start driving) in a reproducible way.

Don't misquote performance in disadvantaged conditions: cold, high speed driving, with heaters on at 21 degrees C.

Those are real-world requirement for many people though. We certainly run our vehicles with the aircon at 21C ... that's not an artificially high figure. Nor is 70 mph. And 11 degrees C is hardly cold for a specific 'winter' test. It's warmer than the UK Annual Mean Temperature (which is around 9.5 C).

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Transitioning from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, then 70 to zero isn't steady speed driving - it's (I assume) a pattern that attempts to replicate real-world usage (including 30 mph stop/start driving) in a reproducible way.



Those are real-world requirement for many people though. We certainly run our vehicles with the aircon at 21C ... that's not an artificially high figure. Nor is 70 mph. And 11 degrees C is hardly cold for a specific 'winter' test. It's warmer than the UK Annual Mean Temperature (which is around 9.5 C).

You’re deliberately misquoting performance by suggesting that this is year round normal. It’s not. It’s winter. Run the same test in Autumn Spring or Summer and the results will be dramatically different

You’ve been clickbait fooled.

As the video clearly showed four fifths of the driving was essentially steady state driving. It was empty test track, not A road in traffic with junctions etc.

It’s horrific to see that my E55 returned just 9mpg, with a 17 gallon tank offering a range of just 170 miles. But it’s deluded to suggest that it’s typical of how expensive and poor ICE performance typically is.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I would also add that in my particular circumstances the range is irrelevant, I typically charge the car every other week anyway, and in my case if I have to charge it instead once every week, it wouldn't be an issue anyway. And so, again, the WLTP Vs real life range is always good to know, but not always relevant.

So to clarify, for EV drivers like you, you don’t need millions of chargers installed over the next 25 years.

You don’t need one commercial charger for every ten EVs in existence, so that you can connect for an hour once a fortnight?

 

[Mactech]

Just to hark back to the subject of run on. I have been very fortunate never to have had the problem, not even in an EV! But I have mitigated against it on a couple of diesel engines. On the JCB Diesel max car, we really didn't want it to happen on what was a very experimental (not to mention quick!) car. So the car was equipped with a pair of strangle valves upstream of any engine parts on the air intakes.
The thought of the a twin sequential turbo engines of about 800bhp each starting to run on its own lubrication was not something desirable! The valves were heavily sprung loaded and operated in emergency by the red button marked 'Strangle' on the steering wheel. Only ever used to prove the system!

 

[markjay]

So to clarify, for EV drivers like you, you don’t need millions of chargers installed over the next 25 years.

You don’t need one commercial charger for every ten EVs in existence, so that you can connect for an hour once a fortnight?

Yes, though the charger in front of my house is a slow charger, I usually leave the car parked there overnight anyway.

 

[Mactech]

Yes, though the charger in front of my house is a slow charger, I usually leave the car parked there overnight anyway.

The charger in my garage is slow (full charge 15 hrs!) but it came with the car, I usually leave it parked there overnight anyway.....
But I don't do night charging anymore, only when the sun is shining and I have surplus solar energy....that is rarely at night

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Yes, though the charger in front of my house is a slow charger, I usually leave the car parked there overnight anyway.

Aye, so do you need one charger to be installed for every ten EV's in your area, which is what our dear James is alleging when he claims that the UK will need "millions of chargers" installed over the next 25 years? (And, in his head, that including all the EV's who have their own driveways)

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The charger in my garage is slow (full charge 15 hrs!) but it came with the car, I usually leave it parked there overnight anyway.....
But I don't do night charging anymore, only when the sun is shining and I have surplus solar energy....that is rarely at night

In your humble opinion, referring back to James May's forecast that "millions of commercial chargers" will need to be installed over the next 25 years, do you think it's at all possible that....

Solar charging might become cheaper (to install, maintain, run) and more commonly available over the next 25 years?

And I mean local not, for example, this enormous XLinks Moroccan solar field which is being built and cabled to the UK to supply 8% of the UK's annual electricity requirement by 2030

Xlinks Morocco–UK Power Project - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[markjay]

Personally, I think that instead of the 2030/2035 deadlines, the government should have gradually squeezed out ICE cars from city centres.

This would have eliminated some of resistance to change, because people living in less densly-populated populated areas, where the typical daily commute is longer, public transport alternatives are scarce, and charging infrastructure is lacking, would be able to keep buying and driving ICE cars, as long as they don't drive them into major cities.

And, by setting a date after which no private ICE powered vehicle will be allowed to enter busy city centres, the uptake of EVs overall might actually be better, and we'd have cleaner air sooner.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Makes sense to me.....but whenever did common sense come into road policies.

 

[Mactech]

In your humble opinion, referring back to James May's forecast that "millions of commercial chargers" will need to be installed over the next 25 years, do you think it's at all possible that....

Solar charging might become cheaper (to install, maintain, run) and more commonly available over the next 25 years?

And I mean local not, for example, this enormous XLinks Moroccan solar field which is being built and cabled to the UK to supply 8% of the UK's annual electricity requirement by 2030

Xlinks Morocco–UK Power Project - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For what it is worth I think the answer lies in education. We are very good at doing what we have always done and mostly resist change.
Unless there are incentives. EV driving could be 'cool' , cheaper and more convenient is certainly better for people in large cities.
If we are prepared to learn how to get the best out of a new technology and are prepared to change some of our habits then I'm quite sure we will not need 'millions of commercial chargers' When people do long journeys they need and will use the commercial system, but many more will charge at home or workplace on a regular basis. The incentive for that as energy prices inevitably rise, will be cost.
I'm not a petrol, diesel or EV head but I can see that each have their own pros and cons. I am prepared to learn about any form of transport.

We have become used to a very energy dense form of liquid fuel, which now appears to be killing our planet. Learning to use less by traveling less or much more efficiently will be hard for some, for others it can become a journey of enlightenment and technological innovation. I have a foot in both camps.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Over 80% of all EV charging is already done at home. Many EV owners have NEVER charged away from home. Looking at how I've used my car over the last 12 months I might have needed to charge on the road no more than two or three times ........if I drove an EV.

 

[Mactech]

Over 80% of all EV charging is already done at home. Many EV owners have NEVER charged away from home. Looking at how I've used my car over the last 12 months I might have needed to charge on the road no more than two or three times ........if I drove an EV.

Yep! Whist our EV is normally our local car it has travelled out of range on a few occasions, but only once in 7 months have I used a commercial charger...and then only so see what the experience was like. It turned out in my case to be completely seamless.

 

[BTB 500]

You’re deliberately misquoting performance by suggesting that this is year round normal. It’s not. It’s winter.

As mentioned 11C is hardly 'winter'.

You’ve been clickbait fooled.

As the video clearly showed four fifths of the driving was essentially steady state driving. It was empty test track, not A road in traffic with junctions etc.

How would you group test a bunch of cars in a fair, consistent and reproducible way in traffic on public roads?

This is their description of the test method:

For obvious reasons, it wouldn’t be safe (or potentially even legal) to deliberately run our electric vehicles (EVs) out of charge on the public road. That’s why we always use our test centre in Bedfordshire.

We follow a relatively simple test route of roughly 15 miles, which includes 2.6 miles of simulated stop-start urban driving, four miles at a steady 50mph and eight miles at a constant 70mph. The rationale for the high percentage of high-speed cruising is that drivers who want to travel long distances in one hit are likely to be using the motorway network.

The 12 cars were charged to 100% and then left out in the open overnight, for roughly 14 hours in 6-10deg C ambient conditions. The following morning they were plugged in again to check they were fully charged, plus we made sure their tyre pressures were correct, set the climate control systems to 21deg and switched the headlights to dipped beam.

Eco (or the closest equivalent) driving mode was selected, and the cars were left in their default regenerative braking setting – or if an ‘automatic’ or ‘adaptive’ mode was available, this was selected.

The cars were then driven repeatedly around our test route in convoy, with driver changes and a switch in running order at the end of each lap.

We all know that EVs perform best in slow stop/start urban driving, where range isn't an issue anyway. I assume What Car? are trying to simulate a more realistic usage pattern for the large majority of potential owners who wouldn't normally be driving them that way.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Personally, I think that instead of the 2030/2035 deadlines, the government should have gradually squeezed out ICE cars from city centres.

This would have eliminated some of resistance to change, because people living in less densly-populated populated areas, where the typical daily commute is longer, public transport alternatives are scarce, and charging infrastructure is lacking, would be able to keep buying and driving ICE cars, as long as they don't drive them into major cities.

And, by setting a date after which no private ICE powered vehicle will be allowed to enter busy city centres, the uptake of EVs overall might actually be better, and we'd have cleaner air sooner.

Try telling that to the EU Commission who put this "well thought out" legislation in front of the European Parliament, so creating the precedent that the UK were forced to follow.

Trailblazing where the rest of the World, bar China, carefully didn't follow.

Press corner

Highlights, press releases and speeches

ec.europa.eu

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Over 80% of all EV charging is already done at home. Many EV owners have NEVER charged away from home. Looking at how I've used my car over the last 12 months I might have needed to charge on the road no more than two or three times ........if I drove an EV.

Ditto.

Like you I have other reasons not to be driving EV 1.0's

So that's two of us who won't be needing "millions of commercial chargers to be installed across the UK, to quote James May from Dan and Andrew's "Undertrouser" podcast

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

For what it is worth I think the answer lies in education. We are very good at doing what we have always done and mostly resist change.
Unless there are incentives. EV driving could be 'cool' , cheaper and more convenient is certainly better for people in large cities.
If we are prepared to learn how to get the best out of a new technology and are prepared to change some of our habits then I'm quite sure we will not need 'millions of commercial chargers' When people do long journeys they need and will use the commercial system, but many more will charge at home or workplace on a regular basis. The incentive for that as energy prices inevitably rise, will be cost.
I'm not a petrol, diesel or EV head but I can see that each have their own pros and cons. I am prepared to learn about any form of transport.

We have become used to a very energy dense form of liquid fuel, which now appears to be killing our planet. Learning to use less by traveling less or much more efficiently will be hard for some, for others it can become a journey of enlightenment and technological innovation. I have a foot in both camps.

Education is coming, but death and taxes will play their part.

Younger drivers have less of an issue with the change of tech. Glance, for example, at the huge sea change in "automatic" rather than "stick" driving tests. The young 'uns are already dumping manual.

And, of course, women have already become much more important in vehicle selection, and they're still less "Brmmm, brmmm" than menfolk.

In another 11 or 26 years, the old un's will have stopped driving, leaving the young uns filling the roads.

And then there's taxes. Greenwashed taxes are landing. And diesel and petrol are right in their sights.