The EV fact thread

[Bellow]

Repeating something a thousand times doesn't make it any more true . . .

NOx are produced by any combustion that uses air as the comburant.

Wrong.
And I quote: ''NOx production is determined by a particular temperature and pressure history''. In other words, there has to be a particular (high enough) temperature, and a particular (high enough) pressure and both of those have to occur in time ie, they have to correspond with each other in a particular sequence for NOx to be produced in any quantity worthy of concern.
Low BMEP (read NA) engines are not significant NOx producers.

 

[BTB 500]

Try (or rather, don't....) the following:

In the interests of science I did try it this afternoon (W205 with automatic transmission).

Car in D, stopped, with ECO start/stop kicking in and the engine not running.

Activate the brake HOLD.

Remove all feet from all pedals.

OK, did that:

You now have a silent car, with the engine 'switched off'. A distracted driver might certainly think it's fine to leave the car now, forgetting to switch off the engine properly.

Yup, silent car confirmed. Pretending to be distracted ...

Now undo the seatbelt....... and you have a vehicle moving forward autonomously.

Unfastening my seatbelt didn't do anything, but upon opening the door:



Warning 'bong', big red message in the cluster, parking brake automatically applied, transmission automatically moved to Park, brake hold automatically cancelled, engine still eco-stopped. Vehicle not moving.

I'm a bit of a rebel so did then exit the vehicle without switching off the ignition ... nothing changed other than the warning message was replaced by a 'door open' indicator:



Not sure if that was based on the seat occupancy sensor or just that the the message clears after a certain time.

 

[markjay]

Some must really want electrification to be the only game in town...

By 'some' you are referring to 'everyone'...? Including the University of Virginia and Oxfam, for example? What would be their motives for publishing a supporting a 'cover up' research in the first place?

 

[markjay]

In the interests of science I did try it this afternoon (W205 with automatic transmission).



OK, did that:

View attachment 154858



Yup, silent car confirmed. Pretending to be distracted ...



Unfastening my seatbelt didn't do anything, but upon opening the door:

View attachment 154860

Warning 'bong', big red message in the cluster, parking brake automatically applied, transmission automatically moved to Park, brake hold automatically cancelled, engine still eco-stopped. Vehicle not moving.

I'm a bit of a rebel so did then exit the vehicle without switching off the ignition ... nothing changed other than the warning message was replaced by a 'door open' indicator:

View attachment 154862

Not sure if that was based on the seat occupancy sensor or just that the the message clears after a certain time.

Thanks. I appreciate the meticulous approach.

As said, my 2013 W204 did not have an electronic parking brake, nor was it able to shift itself into P. Take away these two, and you are left with a deactivated brake HOLD and deactivated Start/Stop - and the car is rolling once the driver's door is opened.

Having said that, the W204 was produced until around 10 years ago. And the W204 Facelift was also the first generation of C-Class that had the ECO Start/Stop and the Brake HOLD functions. Newer Mercs - and other marques as well - will all likely have electronic parking brakes.

 

[markjay]

Yup, silent car confirmed. Pretending to be distracted ...

On second thought...

I tend to always depress the brake pedal before shifting gears, including into P.

What would happen if - in this situation - the driver accidentally hits the accelerator instead of the brake pedal?

The silent 'switched off' car will race forward, with the driver stepping on the 'brake pedal' even harder.

This will cause an accident even in a modern car.

People just aren't used to silent auto-braked cars, and some - especially experienced drivers - might get confused.

 

[tode]

Wrong.
And I quote: ''NOx production is determined by a particular temperature and pressure history''. In other words, there has to be a particular (high enough) temperature, and a particular (high enough) pressure and both of those have to occur in time ie, they have to correspond with each other in a particular sequence for NOx to be produced in any quantity worthy of concern.
Low BMEP (read NA) engines are not significant NOx producers.

You don't say where your quotation comes from, but reliable sources estimate the production of NOx in the UK at 643000 Tonnes in 2022, of which about 30% comes from road transport ( SOURCE ).

You will find a short article on NOx production and the effects on health here: SOURCE

HTH

 

[BTB 500]

As said, my 2013 W204 did not have an electronic parking brake, nor was it able to shift itself into P. Take away these two, and you are left with a deactivated brake HOLD and deactivated Start/Stop - and the car is rolling once the driver's door is opened.

But the extract from the owners manual you posted only lists four conditions for brake hold deactivating automatically, none of which are opening the door or undoing the setabelt:



It then continues to say that opening the door or undoing the seatbelt with brake hold active will give a warning message on the cluster:




No mention of it cancelling.

On that basis it would appear that either your car was faulty in some way or the manual is wrong.

 

[BTB 500]

On second thought...

I tend to always depress the brake pedal before shifting gears, including into P.

What would happen if - in this situation - the driver accidentally hits the accelerator instead of the brake pedal?

The silent 'switched off' car will race forward, with the driver stepping on the 'brake pedal' even harder.

This will cause an accident even in a modern car.

People just aren't used to silent auto-braked cars, and some - especially experienced drivers - might get confused.

Yes for sure if you floor the accelerator with it in drive the car will shoot forwards. Typically the brake pedal is significantly bigger to reduce the risk of this, but I agree it could happen.

 

[Bellow]

You don't say where your quotation comes from

It flows from this >> Zeldovich mechanism - Wikipedia
All combustion and engine development engineers are aware of it.

, but reliable sources estimate the production of NOx in the UK at 643000 Tonnes in 2022, of which about 30% comes from road transport ( SOURCE ).

What did you expect given the engines studied are high pressure/minimum CO2 engines?

You will find a short article on NOx production and the effects on health here: SOURCE

HTH

Been aware of what NOx does for decades - but thanks anyway.

 

[markjay]

But the extract from the owners manual you posted only lists four conditions for brake hold deactivating automatically, none of which are opening the door or undoing the setabelt:

View attachment 154864

It then continues to say that opening the door or undoing the seatbelt with brake hold active will give a warning message on the cluster:

View attachment 154865
View attachment 154866

No mention of it cancelling.

On that basis it would appear that either your car was faulty in some way or the manual is wrong.

Unfortunately I don't have the car anymore... perhaps a member with a face-lift W204 can try this (safely)?

 

[markjay]

Yes for sure if you floor the accelerator with it in drive the car will shoot forwards. Typically the brake pedal is significantly bigger to reduce the risk of this, but I agree it could happen.

Unfortunately, it's more common than people think. And, when there are no injuries, we don't even hear about it. See for example:

Woman pressed accelerator instead of brake before hitting children at school | ITV News

Eight pupils and parents were standing outside Beatrix Potter Primary School in Openview, Earlsfield, south-west London, when they were struck by the car. | ITV News London

www.itv.com

Fatal crash bus driver pressed accelerator instead of brake, court hears

Two people died after the vehicle crashed into a supermarket in Coventry in October 2015.

www.bracknellnews.co.uk

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/solutions-to-pedal-confusion.pdf

https://www.cartoq.com/why-drivers-mistakenly-hit-the-accelerator-instead-of-the-brake-yes-it-happens/

 

[Bellow]

By 'some' you are referring to 'everyone'...? Including the University of Virginia and Oxfam, for example? What would be their motives for publishing a supporting a 'cover up' research in the first place?

How can there be a meaningful discussion about land use that ignores meat consumption and its deleterious effects - not least its prodigious methane production? Neither UoV or Oxfam have the cajones to go near it.
I didn't accuse them of a 'cover up' but their positions aren't credible unless they address the wastefulness of meat consumption.

 

[BTB 500]

Unfortunately, it's more common than people think. And, when there are no injuries, we don't even hear about it.

40+ years ago I was involved in a minor accident where the opposite happened. I was behind a Volvo at a T junction, both of us turning left onto a road with no traffic in sight in either direction. The Volvo went, I glanced right to check the road was still clear ... it was so I took my foot off the brake and the car (auto) started to move forward. Before I could touch the accelerator I'd rolled slowly into the back of the Volvo, which had stopped halfway out into the road we were joining. The guy came back and apologised profusely ... he'd only just picked the car up, never driven an auto before, and had hit the brake instead of the accelerator. Still my fault of course - you live and learn.

 

[markjay]

How can there be a meaningful discussion about land use that ignores meat consumption and its deleterious effects - not least its prodigious methane production? Neither UoV or Oxfam have the cajones to go near it.
I didn't accuse them of a 'cover up' but their positions aren't credible unless they address the wastefulness of meat consumption.

Western governments are trying to change the way people power their cars, and the change from petrol stations to electric chargers is looking set to bring about civil unrest, a revolution, civil war even.... good luck with getting 7bn people to stop eating meat.

 

[markjay]

Western governments are trying to change the way people power their cars, and the change from petrol stations to electric chargers is looking set to bring about civil unrest, a revolution, civil war even.... good luck with getting 7bn people to stop eating meat.

300 million of which are Americans.....

 

[SmartAmg]

300 million of which are Americans.....

What! No Big Macs
No chance!!!!

 

[Bellow]

Western governments are trying to change the way people power their cars, and the change from petrol stations to electric chargers is looking set to bring about civil unrest, a revolution, civil war even.... good luck with getting 7bn people to stop eating meat.

It's a choice that none of the governments you allude to have the bottle to face up to let alone offer to the public. A move to bio-fuels would in any case obviate the need to 'change the way people power their cars'. So instead of persuading people to reconsider what they eat they are having overly expensive cars without necessarily a convenient way to 're-fuel' them along with other aspects they find unsuitable or unpalatable foisted on them. Changing what's on the end of a fork is nothing compared to the upheaval associated with transitioning to EVs and that's at the user level without factoring in the external necessities up to and including the death of the Western car industry and consequent job losses. Make your bed and lie in it time. But accusing those opposed to EVs of being resistant to change rings a little hollow when clinging to your existing diet which causes more environmental damage than EVs can ever mitigate.

 

[ALFAitalia]

You do seem to be missing the point that bio fuels still kick out pollution....and I dont just mean carbon, make pollution to actually refine, and then after all that you burn it at about 20 to 40% efficiency in a car engine, polluting with NOX etc as you go.....an electric car is about 90% efficient ....and even allowing for charging losses etc EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. At best bio fuel might haver a place in aviation or even HGVs until battery tech improves (although you can already buy EV HGVs) but cars are going to EV...end of....and you opinion (or mine) wont stop it now...there is no going back. It was only a fluke that cars were not EV from the invention of them.
Don't get me wrong....Id rather poke pins in my eyes than drive an EV.......but love them or hate them, they are here to stay. Arguments against then....or for bio fuels (or the even more laughable hydrogen) are all pretty weak. And apart from us petrol heads most drivers really could not care less what powers their car so that why they has really not been much resistance to the switch to EV.
The meat thing is a completely different subject....sure it needs to change to lower carbon output....but saying there is no point changing cars to a cleaner power is all the time we eat so much meat?....well its not a great argument.

 

[ChipChop]

Been some interesting comments on the push towards EV's in the USA recently following the news of the new 2032 US tailpipe rules . Namely the madness of handing the US auto industry, which not long ago represented 7% of the US's gross domestic product, on a plate to China.

 

[markjay]

Been some interesting comments on the push towards EV's in the USA recently following the news of the new 2032 US tailpipe rules . Namely the madness of handing the US auto industry, which not long ago represented 7% of the US's gross domestic product, on a plate to China.

I believe that the US are wrong to start with Federal EV legislation... firstly, they always had cheap gasoline. Then, they have (in some states) very long journeys, some of which (like in Australia) cannot be done without carrying a can of additional fuel in the car. There are not many places in the Mojave Desert where you can stop - for refuelling or charging. And last, the US has the most extreme personal freedoms than any other place in the world, and forcing individuals to do things they didn't choose to do is going to be hard work (in some states even wearing seatbelt cannot be legally enforced).

It would have been better dealt with at state-level, where those states who can easily implement EVs, will legislate first.