The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

Variable VED was much much easier to implement than variable duty at point of sale.

Fuel duty is in effect variable anyway.

Big thirsty car ... more duty paid.

Lots of miles ... more duty paid.

Several passengers ... less duty paid per occupant.

OTOH the issue with VED is that is 'variable' according to price and category of vehicle with no relationship to how much it is actually used.

 

[markjay]

Fuel duty is in effect variable anyway.

Big thirsty car ... more duty paid.

Lots of miles ... more duty paid.

Several passengers ... less duty paid per occupant.

OTOH the issue with VED is that is 'variable' according to price and category of vehicle with no relationship to how much it is actually used.

So just like how I pay from my taxes for the NHS, the police, the fire service, and many other public services? Those who consume these services more do not seem to pay more than others. In fact, many are actually exempt...

 

[190]

So just like how I pay from my taxes for the NHS, the police, the fire service, and many other public services? Those who consume these services more do not seem to pay more than others. In fact, many are actually exempt...

Car use is different. The pursuit of net zero is behind the transition to EV's so anything that taxes an EV's use by the mile would be consistent with that aim of reducing total emissions from cars at least until all electricity generation is carbon neutral. And even when that happens EV's will still be producing pollution from tyres and bigger ones will be more polluting. So there would be something missing from pay per mile at a flat rate.
A 3 tonne private car is an obscenity in ecological terms regardless of it's motive power source. How can that be reflected in tax per mile so that it pays more than a Fiat 500. As has been pointed out above, Fuel duty currently does that.

 

[poormansporsche]

Another reason that granny cable charging may have a short life is that every designated charging point is internet connected meaning supply can be throttled to suit grid inadequacies (generation and distribution). Granny cable charging is remote form that so there's the possibility of large numbers of people charging - albeit at lower currents - for prolonged periods simultaneously when the grid isn't up to the task - and without any means of rectification.
Add the unfairness of miserly taxation for the EV user compared to ICE user when fossil fuels are still used for electricity generation. Given that the poorest aren't in a position to buy EVs then this is a regressive taxation regime - and the public have a right to object to it. As it is, I doubt that many are enamoured by the tax incentives already doled out in pursuit of the electrification dream. Continued freebies start to look like taking the piss.

I wouldn't worry about it they will probably just up the leccy vat across the board to 20% to make things fair again

 

[Bellow]

A typical (without seeking out special overnight deals to enable overnight charging ) domestic electricity tariff is 25p/kW.hr, while public charging begins at 89p/kW.hr. Those without off-street parking (and no free at work charging) pay three and a half times more for exactly the same electricity.
When petrol/diesel is circa £1,35/litre, anyone proposing that those without off-street parking should pay £4.80/litre would be regarded as a lunatic on a mission to provoke widespread rioting.

 

[markjay]

Car use is different. The pursuit of net zero is behind the transition to EV's so anything that taxes an EV's use by the mile would be consistent with that aim of reducing total emissions from cars at least until all electricity generation is carbon neutral. And even when that happens EV's will still be producing pollution from tyres and bigger ones will be more polluting. So there would be something missing from pay per mile at a flat rate.
A 3 tonne private car is an obscenity in ecological terms regardless of it's motive power source. How can that be reflected in tax per mile so that it pays more than a Fiat 500. As has been pointed out above, Fuel duty currently does that.

OK, but VED has been based on CO2 emissions since 2001, long before EVs were even conceived. No one seemed to have an issue with how VED is being charged, while it benefited Diesel car owners (and Prius owners). However, now that EV owners stand to benefit (heaven forbid), people are taking out their abacuses and start making calculations.... you have to wonder why

 

[SmartAmg]

[QUOTE="markjay
However, now that EV owners stand to benefit (heaven forbid), people are taking out their abacuses and start making calculations.... you have to wonder why
[/QUOTE]

Totally agree.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

OK, but VED has been based on CO2 emissions since 2001, long before EVs were even conceived. No one seemed to have an issue with how VED is being charged, while it benefited Diesel car owners (and Prius owners). However, now that EV owners stand to benefit (heaven forbid), people are taking out their abacuses and start making calculations.... you have to wonder why

The irony is that many of the people who complain about the incentives given to EVs will likely drive one in future (or their family will).

 

[Bellow]

OK, but VED has been based on CO2 emissions since 2001, long before EVs were even conceived. No one seemed to have an issue with how VED is being charged, while it benefited Diesel car owners (and Prius owners).

Yes, to favour diesel over petrol. But at no point was the sale of new petrol vehicles going to be banned. There was still choice.

However, now that EV owners stand to benefit (heaven forbid), people are taking out their abacuses and start making calculations.... you have to wonder why

Implying the politics of envy is gas lighting. There are plenty enough reasons as to why EV owners should pay their way. Not least for the component of VED that maintains the roads which EVs by dint of their extreme weight cause more wear and tear of. And, the carbon neutrality of their fuel is an aspiration not a reality. For that reason there needs to be a method to tax that in accordance with ICE taxation.

 

[ChipChop]

I am starting to feel sorry for the poor EV early adopters. Victims of EV discrimination, they say?

 

[ALFAitalia]

A typical (without seeking out special overnight deals to enable overnight charging ) domestic electricity tariff is 25p/kW.hr,

????? I pay about that for my normal tariff..........over night ones are cheaper....or better still a proper EV charging tariff is between 7 and 9p on average My neighbour pays 7....which is why his 308 EV costs him about 2.5ppm (allowing for losses before anyone says.....its about 2p other wise as he gets about 3.5 miles per kwh). My old derv cost me about 15ppm!!.....big difference.

 

[Bellow]

????? I pay about that for my normal tariff..........over night ones are cheaper....or better still a proper EV charging tariff is between 7 and 9p on average My neighbour pays 7....which is why his 308 EV costs him about 2.5ppm (allowing for losses before anyone says.....its about 2p other wise as he gets about 3.5 miles per kwh). My old derv cost me about 15ppm!!.....big difference.

To take your neighbour as an example then. If he had no option but use public charging at 89p/kW.hr then he'd pay 13 times as much and his ppm would be 25.4p. So, for those who would be reliant on public chargers, they are being asked to drive something that would cost 70% more than the diesel it would (likely) be replacing. Big difference...

 

[ALFAitalia]

Yep....agree 100%......but as over 80 percent of ALL EV charging is done at home.....its not an issue for most. My cabbie neighbour has never charged away from home (no surprise there) and the 308e only does it when going to Scotland (from West Sussex) once a year to see his brother.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Why is 89p per kWh being quoted? I’m sure there will be someone out there who paid that rate but plenty don’t. It’s like quoting unleaded is £2.30 per litre because I paid that much once.

For balance, I’ve just checked Zapmap and the five closest EV charging locations are 37p per kWh. Eight of the ten closest EV charging locations are 37p, one is 25p and one is 79p per kWh.

Generally speaking faster chargers cost more, however unless topping up on a long journey a slower charger can add useful range whilst doing other things, at a lower cost.

 

[BTB 500]

but as over 80 percent of ALL EV charging is done at home

Only because ownership of EVs is currently skewed towards people who can charge at home. A large percentage of the UK population wouldn't be able to do this:

Almost half of UK homes ‘unsuitable’ for electric vehicles

More than two fifths of UK homes are unsuitable for charging an electric vehicle due to the lack of off-road parking, research from Lloyds Bank suggests.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

 

[ALFAitalia]

That depends on where you find your statistics......I've seen anything from 50 to 90% can charge at home....here's an 80% one!!

"Currently, around 80% of owners have access to a home chargepoint, but as electric vehicle uptake access to charging will become a pressing issue, suggests Faissat."

Here's a 75% can one

As fleets go electric, nearly 25% of drivers don’t have anywhere to charge them. - Field Dynamics

As fleets move towards EVs, 6,642,000 households in the UK don’t have the space to park and charge off street.

www.field-dynamics.co.uk

84% can..

Survey: 84% of EV drivers have access to domestic chargers

More than four-fifths of EV drivers have access to a charging point at home, according to Zap-Map’s annual EV charging survey. The survey, carried out in t

www.installeronline.co.uk

88% can....but if you read it more carefully its 88% of EV owner can LOL......this ones quite an interesting read from the EV owners view...

Survey: 84% of EV drivers have access to domestic chargers

More than four-fifths of EV drivers have access to a charging point at home, according to Zap-Map’s annual EV charging survey. The survey, carried out in t

www.installeronline.co.uk

 

[BTB 500]

For balance, I’ve just checked Zapmap and the five closest EV charging locations are 37p per kWh. Eight of the ten closest EV charging locations are 37p, one is 25p and one is 79p per kWh.

Latest UK figures from Zapmap:



Obviously if the average price for rapid chargers is 80p / kWh the top end will be way over that.

For reference, in round figures 17p per mile is equivalent to 35 mpg from a petrol car, and 24p per mile is equivalent to 25 mpg.

 

[BTB 500]

That depends on where you find your statistics......I've seen anything from 50 to 90% can charge at home....here's an 80% one!!

"Currently, around 80% of owners have access to a home chargepoint, but as electric vehicle uptake access to charging will become a pressing issue, suggests Faissat."

Owners of EVs, or owners of cars? Big difference - as mentioned people who can charge at home are more likely to have an EV.

 

[SmartAmg]

The irony is that many of the people who complain about the incentives given to EVs will likely drive one in future (or their family will).

Yep, but they'll turn the incentives down, won't they. As a matter of principle.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Latest UK figures from Zapmap:

View attachment 162870

Obviously if the average price for rapid chargers is 80p / kWh the top end will be way over that.

For reference, in round figures 17p per mile is equivalent to 35 mpg from a petrol car, and 24p per mile is equivalent to 25 mpg.

Read past the headline and you’ll see that’s for rapid and ultra-rapid chargers, so 50 kW and 150 kW or more respectively. Many chargers are slower and therefore much less expensive.

The final paragraph you deleted in my post you quoted is the key piece of information. Most people don’t need to use a rapid charger unless they’re travelling on a long journey, they can just use slower chargers whilst doing other things.

Why is 89p per kWh being quoted? I’m sure there will be someone out there who paid that rate but plenty don’t. It’s like quoting unleaded is £2.30 per litre because I paid that much once.

For balance, I’ve just checked Zapmap and the five closest EV charging locations are 37p per kWh. Eight of the ten closest EV charging locations are 37p, one is 25p and one is 79p per kWh.

Generally speaking faster chargers cost more, however unless topping up on a long journey a slower charger can add useful range whilst doing other things, at a lower cost.

People who can’t charge at home don’t have to use a rapid or ultra rapid charger. They can charge when the car is parked and not in use at a much lower cost than mid-journey when the car is in use. Supermarket, barbers, cinema, dinner, work, etc.