The EV fact thread

[SmartAmg]

It's OK, just because I mention EV drawbacks I'm not saying you're wrong or that you actually wear mittens (that tends to be MG/ID3/4 owners ).

Talking, Bollox again.
Love it though. It does make me laugh.

 

[philnewmerc]

In my experience that's not been the case in recent years...most of the cars I've had in the last couple of decades have been pretty darn accurate on the mpg display.... usually within a mile or two per gallon either way when compared to the brim to brim measurement. Dervs tending to be slightly more accurate.

Not in my case, and I think the sample number is a bit low here: All my diesels except one have significantly overestimated their mpg. In fact, the only 2 that were accurate were my V8 Mercs. Maybe it's cars with turbos that overestimate? Or probably just random and no pattern.

 

[philnewmerc]

The mist similar ICE car we have is a Skart ForFour 1.0, and being an ICE range is not published (advertised) but can be calculated from the fuel consumption and fuel tank capacity, both of which are published.

A quick very Google suggests that the official figures for the Smart are 68.9 MPG and 35 litres, so a range of 530 miles. I love that car but it’s not capable of 424 mile (80% of published) range on the same trip.

We don’t think of ICE cars that way though, so letMs say 80% of published consumption, which is 55 MPG, and again the car is nowhere near capable of that on the same journey m, at -1 deg C in the snow.

Not achieving published consumption/range figures is a car thing, not an EV thing. Partly because people don’t drive like they are in the test and partly because no journey is like the journey in the test.

EV rangeis definitely affected by cold weather, and it’s often pointed out, but who can say that an ICE isn’t? They are, especially on shorter trips, and most people cover short distances most of the time, especially in winter!

Totally agree.

But range/convenience issues aren't issues in ICE cars because finding a fill up point and the time taken to do it and the price are all very very predictable.

 

[philnewmerc]

Talking, Bollox again.
Love it though. It does make me laugh.

But I'm basically just envious because every house I move to never has a drive and hence I miss out on the great electricity (fuel) giveaway currently in full swing !

 

[Bellow]

EV rangeis definitely affected by cold weather, and it’s often pointed out, but who can say that an ICE isn’t? They are, especially on shorter trips, and most people cover short distances most of the time, especially in winter!

Me. Once ICE is up to operating temp it is as economical in winter as summer so long distance travelling range is not impacted.
As you allude, short trips where warm-up is a greater percentage hurts mpg and the only other thing that does is the need for greater acceleration to resume cruising speed when bends etc have to be taken at a slower speed due to road conditions. To be very clear though, ICE fuel efficiency is not impacted by cold weather - before it is said often enough for AI to regurgitate it as 'fact'.

 

[ALFAitalia]

So basically you are saying yes....ICE is affected by cold weather!!!....because you cant avoid having to warm up...which takes much longer in the winter.....so you have to take that into account. And then of course you have cooler denser air to push the car through, fuel used just to keep the car at operation temp at higher speeds etc etc.

How winter weather affects your fuel economy | Shell Australia

Here's how cold weather makes your car use more fuel – and what you can do to minimise the loss.

www.shell.com.au

 

[Bellow]

So basically you are saying yes....ICE is affected by cold weather!!!....because you cant avoid having to warm up...which takes much longer in the winter.....so you have to take that into account.

I do take it into account. A SBC has full water temp in 2 miles. Mine runs on LPG so no enrichment required. That's 2 miles in a journey of 160 - 180 miles. Around one percent of the journey.

And then of course you have cooler denser air to push the car through,

Marginal anyway and insignificant at A and B-road speeds. Maybe more significant for EV as they seem to struggle at higher speeds. A wet road has more impact - and that can be at any ambient temp.

fuel used just to keep the car at operation temp at higher speeds etc etc.

If you mean heat loss, then until the truly adiabatic engine is developed that will always be the case for ICE. It isn't extra fuel, merely heat that didn't make it to the wheels. Thermostats make it a constant no matter the ambient temp.

 

[BTB 500]

So basically you are saying yes....ICE is affected by cold weather!!!....because you cant avoid having to warm up...which takes much longer in the winter.....so you have to take that into account. And then of course you have cooler denser air to push the car through, fuel used just to keep the car at operation temp at higher speeds etc etc.

Obviously travelling through denser air affects all vehicles, regardless of what's powering them.

There are two fundamental issues that only affect EVs though. First, the batteries are adversely affected by low temperatures:

Electric Car Batteries in Cold Weather | Volkswagen UK

Understand how cold weather can affect electric car battery performance and how to charge properly to protect your battery during winter to avoid drain.

www.volkswagen.co.uk

Second, all interior heating comes from the battery (whether directly or by running a heat pump).

AFAIK EV manufacturers are quite open about the fact that they're more affected by cold weather than ICE vehicles.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Obviously travelling through denser air affects all vehicles, regardless of what's powering them.

There are two fundamental issues that only affect EVs though. First, the batteries are adversely affected by low temperatures:

Electric Car Batteries in Cold Weather | Volkswagen UK

Understand how cold weather can affect electric car battery performance and how to charge properly to protect your battery during winter to avoid drain.

www.volkswagen.co.uk

Second, all interior heating comes from the battery (whether directly or by running a heat pump).

AFAIK EV manufacturers are quite open about the fact that they're more affected by cold weather than ICE vehicles.

Agreed.....but to say, as he did, "to be very clear though, ICE fuel efficiency is not impacted by cold weather"....is clearly nonsense. See the link above from shell.

 

[Dryce]

Me. Once ICE is up to operating temp it is as economical in winter as summer so long distance travelling range is not impacted.

Winter diesel allegedly loses you up to 3%.

 

[Bellow]

Agreed.....but to say, as he did, "to be very clear though, ICE fuel efficiency is not impacted by cold weather"....is clearly nonsense. See the link above from shell.

The linked piece is tosh. How often are you driving in minus 7C temps? 25C isn't a typical UK temp either but that's the span used. If you want to get into the density argument then you have to consider that the compression work is reduced with colder air - but thermodynamics is beyond the scope of Shell's spiel. Blaming the engine for driver creature comforts - heated this and heated that - is absurd. As is blaming more frictional 4WD.
Keep repeating it though and AI will count the clicks and put at the top of every search and actual facts will get lost.

 

[Bellow]

Winter diesel allegedly loses you up to 3%.

If true - I don't do diesel to know - that's the fault of the fuel not the engine.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Lol - did my 120 mile run to London today and got more than enough to get back. Steering wheel, seat heater and climate on 20c auto - best part is it costs me a few quid in a 700bhp car…

Don't you mean it's 250 miles for a fiver ?

 

[markjay]

My EV will easily exceed the quoted WLTP range when driving in town.

But the obvious issue is that EV range goes down at motorway speeds compared to city driving, while it is the opposite for ICE cars. And motorway driving is where the range counts.

EV efficiency is unmatched in city driving, because the recuperation captures much of the energy whem braking, while ICE cars simply convert their kinetic energy to heat and waste it away. It's the frequent stopping in city traffic that makes EVs so much more efficient compared to ICE cars.

But, obviously, range isn't as important when you're driving in the city, because in town you're unlike to drive 300 miles between charging - even if you're an Uber driver.

 

[GrahamT]

 

[markjay]

View attachment 164316

Alas, owning a Tesla is no safer than owning a cow.........

 

[ALFAitalia]

Winter diesel allegedly loses you up to 3%.

Do we even get winter derv in this country?.... thought that was just northern Europe and the north half of the US. It only even starts to get thick enough to be an issue at below below minus 9.5c.....not a common occurrence... in England at least.

 

[ALFAitalia]

The linked piece is tosh. How often are you driving in minus 7C temps? 25C isn't a typical UK temp either but that's the span used. If you want to get into the density argument then you have to consider that the compression work is reduced with colder air - but thermodynamics is beyond the scope of Shell's spiel. Blaming the engine for driver creature comforts - heated this and heated that - is absurd. As is blaming more frictional 4WD.
Keep repeating it though and AI will count the clicks and put at the top of every search and actual facts will get lost.

Sorry but there are loads of sites from people far more qualified than us saying that ICE cars ARE less efficient at colder temps (not to mention common sense, logic and my 40 years of experience driving ICE cars telling me otherwise)...and none that I can find saying to the contrary. So I'll stick at my position...and leave it there!

 

[Dryce]

Do we even get winter derv in this country?.... thought that was just northern Europe and the north half of the US. It only even starts to get thick enough to be an issue at below below minus 9.5c.....not a common occurrence... in England at least.

We apparently do - it is supplied from mid Nov to mid March.

I'm old enough to remember diesels stuck at the side of the road on very cold winter days. You just don't see that any more despite there being a lot more diesel vehicles.

 

[Dryce]

If true - I don't do diesel to know - that's the fault of the fuel not the engine.

It's the fault of the whole system. The engine isn't much good if the fuel waxes up.