The EV fact thread

[190]

The big difference between summer and Winter is aerodynamic drag. Drag increases 8.8 % when the temperature falls from 20 Deg C to O Deg C and those are obviously not the most extreme temperatures possible. It's not going to make a big difference around town but on the Motorway it will have an impact. Throw in the 3% lower calorific value of winter petrol blends and reduced MPG is inevitable.

Air cooled engines are much more affected because they never get up to temperature in the winter. I have 17 years of fuel data on my motorcycle and the mpg graph is a recognisable and consistent sine wave with the winter lows 13% down on the summer highs. I don't see such an obvious pattern with the car because it's used in a more variable way but the high MPG's generally occur in the summer and lows in the winter.

 

[Connoisseur]

For me it’s like some are committed to fighting a war already lost. Many people in different times strongly opposed phasing out horse powered travel, others insisted on walking in front of early cars with red flags. Road rage against ev does happen today. The struggle for ICE will continue and it will fail for a host of different reasons.

Young people expect modern technology, which many see as clean or at least cleaner, quiet and reflecting the other digital devices used in their everyday lives; and which integrate with them. Old technology cannot compete, and neither can it fight market economics.

My next ev will deliver 270 to 300 ish miles, have an electronic rear diff and sports suspension, and allow 0-60 in 3.7 seconds.

Fight on, everyone loves a tryer, tho not so much a loser…

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Me. Once ICE is up to operating temp it is as economical in winter as summer so long distance travelling range is not impacted.
As you allude, short trips where warm-up is a greater percentage hurts mpg and the only other thing that does is the need for greater acceleration to resume cruising speed when bends etc have to be taken at a slower speed due to road conditions. To be very clear though, ICE fuel efficiency is not impacted by cold weather - before it is said often enough for AI to regurgitate it as 'fact'.

Of course efficiency isn’t noticeably affected by cold weather, but range is a function of fuel consumption, and fuel consumption is noticeably affected by cold weather in practice.

As I mentioned in the post you quoted, most journeys by most people are short, especially in Winter and so the fuel consumption - and therefore range - is worse in Winter for an ICE too.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I do take it into account. A SBC has full water temp in 2 miles. Mine runs on LPG so no enrichment required. That's 2 miles in a journey of 160 - 180 miles.

That’s quick, I don’t think I’ve ever had a car which warms up so quickly. How many miles does it take for engine and transmission oil to get up to target operating temperature?

 

[SmartAmg]

Personally don't give a shite about less range in Winter, it's inevitable. I simply charge it when it needs it. Just like I do in Summer. More in Winter obviously. But so what. What will be, will be. Simple's.
Think a lot of folk are over thinking it.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Blaming the engine for driver creature comforts - heated this and heated that - is absurd.

I understand your point, however that should be applied equally to EVs. I’m cool with absurd for ICE and absurd for EVs. I’m cool with necessary for ICE and necessary for EVs. I’m less cool with absurd for ICE but necessary for EVs.

I’m not suggesting you specifically, however most people regard those creature comforts as necessary how many times have you read about EV drivers having to wear a coat and scarf, switch the radio off, etc?

 

[ChipChop]

For me it’s like some are committed to fighting a war already lost. Many people in different times strongly opposed phasing out horse powered travel, others insisted on walking in front of early cars with red flags. Road rage against ev does happen today. The struggle for ICE will continue and it will fail for a host of different reasons.

Young people expect modern technology, which many see as clean or at least cleaner, quiet and reflecting the other digital devices used in their everyday lives; and which integrate with them. Old technology cannot compete, and neither can it fight market economics.

My next ev will deliver 270 to 300 ish miles, have an electronic rear diff and sports suspension, and allow 0-60 in 3.7 seconds.

Fight on, everyone loves a tryer, tho not so much a loser…

Ford are about to cut 800 jobs in the UK citing weak demand for electric cars as a factor. Thats market economics for you.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

If true - I don't do diesel to know - that's the fault of the fuel not the engine.

I’m sure experts will cite other factors, but I believe the primary purpose of winter diesel is to prevent waxing at cold temperatures and the complications it can cause. It’s part and parcel of driving a diesel, like EV energy loss during charging is part and parcel of driving an EV.

 

[Will]

I wonder how the (additional) cost of running an ICE car in winter compares to the (additional) cost of running an EV in winter?

My logic is that an EV charged at home, at a few pence per kWh can afford to be far less efficient in the winter freeze and still contribute far less to localised air pollution.

Does it matter if the consumption goes from 4miles per kWh to 2 or something? It might mean you’d go from a penny or two a mile in summer to 4p a mile in winter. Not sure how many ICE cars would be able to compete with that, especially on shorter journeys as mentioned - typically in and around towns, schools, shops etc where air quality is also part of the concern.

I reckon it takes several minutes to defrost a typical ICE car on a cold winter morning, and even then the engine oil will still be cold for quite a while until it’s up to full operating temperature - same for the gearbox, differential etc. Often longer than the journey itself!

 

[poormansporsche]

A bit of a update.

2 months and 2500 miles with the Leaf.

It hasn't spontaneously combusted.

 

[SmartAmg]

A bit of a update.

2 months and 2500 miles with the Leaf.

It hasn't spontaneously combusted.

You sure?

 

[markjay]

Ford are about to cut 800 jobs in the UK citing weak demand for electric cars as a factor. Thats market economics for you.

I wouldn't be surprised if the data showed that bread consumption went down after social networks started badmouthing gluten..............

 

[Connoisseur]

Ford are about to cut 800 jobs in the UK citing weak demand for electric cars as a factor. Thats market economics for you.

Market economics:

The latest Autovista report from Sept 2024 on global ev sales:
global EV sales are still increasing, up by 22% in the first half of 2024, outperforming the total market growth of 3.7% by a wide margin.

In the UK SMMT/DFT say in their October 24 update:

In 2024 to date, there has been 299,733 new fully electric cars sold, which is 18.1% market share of all new cars registered this year.

In 2023, the last full year, there were 314,684 electric cars sold, as compared to 267,203 in 2022; a growth of 18%. The proportion of new cars that are electric has grown from 6.6% in 2020, to 18.1% in 2024.

Ford may be suffering, others aren’t, the market is never wrong…

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The big difference between summer and Winter is aerodynamic drag. Drag increases 8.8 % when the temperature falls from 20 Deg C to O Deg C and those are obviously not the most extreme temperatures possible. It's not going to make a big difference around town but on the Motorway it will have an impact. Throw in the 3% lower calorific value of winter petrol blends and reduced MPG is inevitable.

Air cooled engines are much more affected because they never get up to temperature in the winter. I have 17 years of fuel data on my motorcycle and the mpg graph is a recognisable and consistent sine wave with the winter lows 13% down on the summer highs. I don't see such an obvious pattern with the car because it's used in a more variable way but the high MPG's generally occur in the summer and lows in the winter.

Agreed. Adding to this…

Using a CLS 55 AMG travelling at the often cited 85 MPH average cruising speed as an example - and assuming that all fluids are up to target operating temperature, the road is level and straight, and there is no wind - aerodynamic resistance increases by 10.2% at 0 deg C compared to 25 deg C, whereas the overall running resistance (and therefore power to maintain constant speed) only increases by 5.5%.

Ambient Temperature (C) - Aerodynamic Drag (N) - Running (Resistance N) - Running Resitance Power (kW)
25 - 618 - 1071 40.67
0 - 681 - 1134 - 43.0
-25 - 744 - 1196 - 45.5

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

A bit of a update.

2 months and 2500 miles with the Leaf.

It hasn't spontaneously combusted.

WARNING WARNING WARNING

@poormansporsche is clearly on the EV payroll spouting misinformation like this. He’s almost certainly a mouthpiece for the social elite who using EVs to achieve world domination.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

II reckon it takes several minutes to defrost a typical ICE car on a cold winter morning, and even then the engine oil will still be cold for quite a while until it’s up to full operating temperature - same for the gearbox, differential etc. Often longer than the journey itself!

The vast majority of people won’t car, and most of the minority who do care won’t have a way of seeing how long it really takes for a transmission to get fully up to temperature, but it’s an eye opener for those who can!

 

[markjay]

The vast majority of people won’t car, and most of the minority who do care won’t have a way of seeing how long it really takes for a transmission to get fully up to temperature, but it’s an eye opener for those who can!

For the lead foot brigade... you can give an EV full beans from a cold start of a frosty morning No need for all this nonsense of waiting for the stove under the hood to 'warm up'!

 

[Will]

The vast majority of people won’t car, and most of the minority who do care won’t have a way of seeing how long it really takes for a transmission to get fully up to temperature, but it’s an eye opener for those who can!

Proper cars have oil temperature gauges for the engine at least. I remember many years ago in my old 16v W201s that even after the air vents blow warm air, it takes several miles of driving to get the oil fully up to temperature. And that’s just the engine!

I should think many cars don’t get the transmission up to temperature during the winter on the majority of typical journeys - eg 5-10 miles or something.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Totally agree.

But range/convenience issues aren't issues in ICE cars because finding a fill up point and the time taken to do it and the price are all very very predictable.

Although once someone adapts to driving an EV there’s not really much more inconvenience than ICE. Chargers - and especially rapid chargers are few and far between on minor routes in rural areas - but petrol stations are too.

Both will need to plan ahead to make sure that they are not in area without refuelling or recharging provision when they are low on fuel or charge - or take the risk that they may cover some of the journey on the seat edge.

An EV driver can often charger at their destination and so once adapted to that an EV driver would favour that convenience over the ability to charge at a public charger. That’s not an option for ICE drivers at many destinations.

The conveniences of ICE and EVs are different, but the biggest difference is actually familiarity. Almost all EV drivers will understand well driving ICE and EVs. The same is not true for the majority of ICE drivers. Experience matters.

 

[ChipChop]

Market economics:

The latest Autovista report from Sept 2024 on global ev sales:
global EV sales are still increasing, up by 22% in the first half of 2024, outperforming the total market growth of 3.7% by a wide margin.

In the UK SMMT/DFT say in their October 24 update:

In 2024 to date, there has been 299,733 new fully electric cars sold, which is 18.1% market share of all new cars registered this year.

In 2023, the last full year, there were 314,684 electric cars sold, as compared to 267,203 in 2022; a growth of 18%. The proportion of new cars that are electric has grown from 6.6% in 2020, to 18.1% in 2024.

Ford may be suffering, others aren’t, the market is never wrong…

The reality is total annual vehicle registrations in the UK have never recovered to pre 2020 (pre-covid) levels. Makes your EV market growth claims moot.