The EV fact thread
- Thread starter Petrol Pete
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I can see how the Model 3 would work well for you out there!
It has been a decade since I was at Yas Marina circuit giving the Bentley GT3 it first ever race. A little 12hr event to start things off. It finished on the podium.
I'm here in the pitlane with my notebook behind my back...
The brand new car led the race for a while, but a podium at its very first try paved the way for wins the following year.
Like many car brands, I'm still sitting on the fence in the ICE vs EV debate and enjoying the best features of both types of vehicle
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Clever stuff Steve. Mind boggling the way technology has developed over the last few years.l 10 years ago that would have been stuff of dreams.
I was impressed by the 360 camera that showed the silhouette of the delivery driver on his bike whilst at the traffic lights.
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Pinched from the Leaf FB page.
(Arson, not spontaneous combustion though
)Whether or not they are going away is entirely debatable . It is entirely questionable whether there are enough minerals in the earth to keep churning out batteries in the volumes that would be demanded globally , and while some first world countries have seen some adoption of electric vehicles , it is far from global , and even first world countries are showing a lot of reluctance .
I personally won't buy an ev since , at my age , I can keep my existing W124 running as long as I am likely to continue driving , and just have no interest in changing when I already have something that meets my needs and is all paid for .
It is , however , true that , alongside petrol ( compression ignition did not come along until much later ) there were steam and electric vehicles , and some of the first ones were built right here in Scotland , in the Arrol-Johnston factory on the outskirts of Dumfries , where the first 50 or so vehicles produced were electric cars for the Edison Car Company in America .
The Arrol-Johnston factory - one of the first purpose built car factories in the world - still stands , although the building is now derelict , and was formerly used as a tyre factory after car production ended .
Arrol-Johnston (1896-1931)
Arrol-Johnston Car History Glasgow UK From 1896 to 1931 Arrol-Johnston (later known as Arrol-Aster) was an early Scottish manufacturer of...
Every single ICE car I've had has gone well beyond 200,000 miles , admittedly almost all being either M-B or VAG vehicles ; my record being my W124 with more than three times that figure .
When I was younger , alongside my gas-guzzling cars , I used to run a 125cc motorbike for commuting to work and for when I just had to get myself around - it took around £2:50 to fill the tank ( 1980s ) , VED was something like £12:50 and fully comp insurance was something like £16:50 . I drove that bike for around 11 years , covering something like 120,000 miles on it , and my only two minor mishaps were one time a girl in a Mini changed lanes from the right turning lane into my lane just as I was passing to her left , clipping my right side exhaust can , but i stayed on , and think she got more of a fright than I did . The other time was on a countru road outside Stirling which had just been covered with loose chippings , and on a downhill stretch with a right hander at the bottom , I saw where all the chippings had been swept , so I slowed right down to walking pace , but I might as well have been on ice as the back wheel slid out from under me , and I just stepped off the bike and let it go . My main mistake was putting my arm out to break my fall and , despite my leather gloves and jacket , some gravel went up the inside of my sleeve and grazed my forearm . Also broke the right hand front indicator , mirror , and the front brake lever , but there was enough of it left to get two fingers onto , and I got home mainly using the back brake . Also bent the right hand pillion foot peg , but I just hammered it straight again .Oh! I love these fact or fiction threads, but who is going to judge the validity of anything posted
I'll start with some facts (as seen from my perspective!) and you can read into it what you like.
I don't know where that leaves me....except in Norfolk!
- I own both and EV and one of those terrible 'wood burning' diesel things. Each fulfil a specific role in the household. One for mainly short hops, one for the longer journeys. This allows both of us to stay mobile when we are not actually in the same place.
- The EV costs very slightly more to insure than the IC car, despite it being of lower current value.
- I find myself in a house that (if 'driven' correctly) is energy neutral. It will also supply about half the required energy of the EV at a very low rate.
- After spending about 2 weeks of my year above 35k feet for a good percentage of my life, I now have little desire to board an aircraft, and have not done so for 7 years.
- I bought an EV because it was one of the very few cars my wife felt was quirky enough to float her boat, and because I like and understand carbon cars. I would not buy a new one, but at 2 years old, 5k miles, still in warranty and half new price it seemed good value.
- My fuel costs for the EV have averaged less than £5 a week in the 3 months and 1500 miles I have owned it.
- I'm of Scottish decent and house and car purchases have had more to do with what I like than a desire to save the planet, it's just lucky that sometimes those things are not mutually exclusive.
Point remains , if you don't wish to run a car full time , a small motorbike is a good alternative , and I was actually cheaper to run the car AND the bike , than just to run a car .
There are now electric bikes , I know someone who has one , and it is fine for his 15 mile commute , given he can charge at home and at work , but it is absolutely useless for going any distance at all on .
Yes, I had a 125 motorbike when I first got married and my wife used the car. The problem with bikes is they tend to 'grow' and I ended my motorcycling days after my 70th birthday with a bike ten times the capacity that 'sensible' one.
Whilst I spent most of my teenage years falling off bikes on the dirt and have visited the scenery on a few trackdays, I have always managed to stay on a bike on the road. I've now decided not to push my luck any further as the risk/reward ratio no longer appears attractive.
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True and equally applicable to the countless other things which use batteries made with the same minerals. The difference is that most EV batteries will be recycled, whereas most other batteries are treated as disposable, most end up in landfill.
True and equally applicable to the oil which is used to produce fuel, lubricants and many plastic parts for ICE vehicles. The difference is that most EV batteries will be recycled, whereas most oil derived products will not be, it will be disposed of or burnt.
The amount of accessible minerals and oil will be a problem for sustaining the growth in manufacture and use of disposable electronics and new ICE car usage in third world, never mind EVs. If first world countries don’t start to do something then who will?
We are in a first world country and have the luxury of wishing to keep our ICE cars so we are unconsciously biased towards justifying that.
MikeInWimbledon
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Loving the continued assumption that EVs depend on commercial chargers, whereas for most they are charged overnight at home. Which is why charging bays are so empty all the time.
I’m off to the West Country today to see a car. Long journey: 220 mile round trip: probably 5 hours. If I was in an EV I’d probably do it on home electricity, but if it was an inefficient EV like the I-pace I’d plug it in for 10-15 minutes while on a coffee, lunch or bladder stop.
I’m off to the West Country today to see a car. Long journey: 220 mile round trip: probably 5 hours. If I was in an EV I’d probably do it on home electricity, but if it was an inefficient EV like the I-pace I’d plug it in for 10-15 minutes while on a coffee, lunch or bladder stop.
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Not sure if you can add polls to threads these days, but I’m sure if you surveyed the majority of EVs being used, the results would align with your thoughts Mike.
Some people always look for the negatives in change, and ignore any positives (no pun intended)
A bike can be very cheap to run. I've rarely been without one in 55 years on the road. My current bike that I've had for 18 years is a 45 year old BMW R45. No road tax , no MOT, no depreciation, just insurance at £60 -£70 and it does 70 MPG. I commuted to work on it for 14 years. The great thing about a bike over 40 years old is that you don't feel the the need to get rid of it just because it's not being used often enough to justify the standing costs. I used to think I'd give up motorcycling when I reached 70 but that soon got extended. You don't slow down when you get old, you get old when you slow down.
I thought the 124 had to have a new or rebuilt engine though?
Not really a good comparison if so, and I’m sure you had to put a new engine in your 190E as well?
Think how many oil changes, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs, ignition leads, coolant changes, radiators, water pumps, belts, gaskets etc would be needed on your typical ICE car to reach anything approaching those sorts of mileages plus all of the fuel needed to take them to six figure mileages. Many newer engines simply don’t make these sorts of mileages as the cost of repair is too high.
Yes some MB older engines can cover quite high mileages but this doesn’t really take anything away from moving forwards with with new technology does it? We can’t buy W124s anymore and they’re not compliant with current emissions standards in the Capital either. As for keeping things running - anything can be repaired or replaced if people want to - trigger’s broom anyone?
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I thought the 124 had to have a new or rebuilt engine though?
Not really a good comparison if so, and I’m sure you had to put a new engine in your 190E as well?
Think how many oil changes, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs, ignition leads, coolant changes, radiators, water pumps, belts, gaskets etc would be needed on your typical ICE car to reach anything approaching those sorts of mileages plus all of the fuel needed to take them to six figure mileages. Many newer engines simply don’t make these sorts of mileages as the cost of repair is too high.
Yes some MB older engines can cover quite high mileages but this doesn’t really take anything away from moving forwards with with new technology does it? We can’t buy W124s anymore and they’re not compliant with current emissions standards in the Capital either. As for keeping things running - anything can be repaired or replaced if people want to - trigger’s broom anyone?
We get that a lot. When we renew old IT kit for customers, we also include in our quote the cost of recycling the old equipment by an accredited IT recycling contractor. We are then often told to 'donate it to charities', and we have to explain to the surprised customer that charities do not want 10 years old PCs! Like the rest of us, they want current tech.
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As for keeping things running - anything can be repaired or replaced if people want to - trigger’s broom anyone?
Historically, yes. Now ... not so much.
For example some current cars have no instrument cluster or switchgear - everything is done via a single big touchscreen. That's not going to be easy to replace 10-15 years from now, and without it the car is dead. EVs in particular are evolving quickly so many are produced in low numbers for a relatively short time before being replaced - it's not realistic to expect replacement parts for all of them to be available off into the future, and electronic components are not the sort of thing that a bloke with a lathe can knock up for you if necessary. Changing times.
Ah! But you failed to mention (without being questioned) if the car was an EV or ICE vehicle
We can deduce from this that maybe there is little or no bias in anything you present as EV facts?
Supply and demand I guess - if there’s sufficient demand for a particular part then someone will offer a repair or replacement.
But realistically - when you compare a 10-15 year old EV (or average ICE car) with a new one, would there be much demand to keep one running for much longer than that? Most mainstream cars become obsolete generally, certainly tech wise - cars have changed from the old days when all you had was a radio and a couple of switches inside!
The goal would be to make them affordable to own (purchase/lease cost) and cheap to run for 10-15 years (low cost of servicing, major components designed to last that long) and easily recyclable.
No one wants to run cars these days until they’re rusty and need rebuilding, new paint, suspension, engine and gearboxes overhauled etc. Saggy and worn out interiors, out of date tech etc. Many middle-aged ICE cars have been scrapped due to being beyond economical repair - if a 10-15 year old car needs a four figure repair it’s not unusual to see them not repaired by choice.
Don’t get me wrong I’ve run older cars for most of my life (and own a few!) and have some nice nostalgic memories but almost no-one washes their own car these days let alone does any servicing or repairs!
Cars are a disposable item for most people and are usually leased or financed and replaced after a few years - just like most people do with their phones.
Supply and demand I guess - if there’s sufficient demand for a particular part then someone will offer a repair or replacement.
But realistically - when you compare a 10-15 year old EV (or average ICE car) with a new one, would there be much demand to keep one running for much longer than that? Most mainstream cars become obsolete generally, certainly tech wise - cars have changed from the old days when all you had was a radio and a couple of switches inside!
The goal would be to make them affordable to own (purchase/lease cost) and cheap to run for 10-15 years (low cost of servicing, major components designed to last that long) and easily recyclable.
No one wants to run cars these days until they’re rusty and need rebuilding, new paint, suspension, engine and gearboxes overhauled etc. Saggy and worn out interiors, out of date tech etc. Many middle-aged ICE cars have been scrapped due to being beyond economical repair - if a 10-15 year old car needs a four figure repair it’s not unusual to see them not repaired by choice.
Don’t get me wrong I’ve run older cars for most of my life (and own a few!) and have some nice nostalgic memories but almost no-one washes their own car these days let alone does any servicing or repairs!
Cars are a disposable item for most people and are usually leased or financed and replaced after a few years - just like most people do with their phones.
Agree with most of that, although 10-15 years was just an example - there have already been examples of much younger cars where critical parts have no longer been available. It really isn't the case that "anything can be repaired or replaced if people want to".
The battery packs in vehicles are several orders of magnitude greater than those in other items ( even power tools or my broadcast video kit ; at least with the latter PAG have a recycle programme for their batteries which cost up to £1K each and of which I have 20-odd in my kit ) .
I have read elsewhere that at least some vehicle batteries are not recyclable , and will just have to go into landfill , maybe some of them can in some way be recycled .
I know that in recent years ( the last 30 or 40 years ) much has been made of how much of cars can be recycled , Mercedes-Benz have been banging on about this for a good many years now , and of course we had the problems with water based paints and biodegradable wiring looms . As you say , this applies equally to ICE vehicles as well as EVs .
One thing that really would make a difference , and the third world countries are so very much better at it , is in keeping existing vehicles running forever ; it can be done , and to change the mindset that sees perfectly good cars being cast off for newer ones when they are still perfectly serviceable .
While spreading of salt on our roads is responsible for promoting underbody corrosion , more than in most other countries , it really isn't hard to keep cars going for 30 , 40 , 50 or more years , and if people would just learn to be happy with what they have and keep them going , then there would be far less squandering of the earth's resources . Of course the manufacturers want to keep selling more vehicles to make profit , but we would all be better off financially than paying for cars that can cost almost as much as houses - and someone has to pay for them , even if it isn't the person driving them .
We may have a luxury of choice to keep our ICE cars ; in other parts of the world there is no choice at all because there is no infrastructure for EVs , nor do most people have the funds to buy them .
