The EV fact thread

[Dryce]

The Norwegians would know:

How did Norway become the world leader in electric car use?

Nine in 10 new cars sold in the country are electric or hybrid, compared to less than half of those sold in the EU. What’s Norway’s secret?

www.euronews.com

As an aside: a quick scan of that article and it appears to completely miss Norway's unique position with regard to hydro electricity.

 

[Noitz]

The Danes have alternative ways of pre-heating their EVs.

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[190]

Nordic and any other countries with extremely low winter temperatures have always needed to pre-heat IC car engines. Electric block heaters are common and the small cost of electricity to run them reduces cold running fuel consumption to the extent that the cost of fuel saved far exceeds the cost of pre-heating not to mention the other benefits of a quickly warmed car interior. They are clued up on the benefits of pre-heating so I'm sure they will have done the same sums on whether or not of pre-heating an EV is beneficial.

 

[BTB 500]

Not quite.... there's no such thing as free energy.

Absolutely. My point though is that with an ICE car you may use a little more fuel, which is reflected in your MPG for a particular trip. But with an EV if you spend 45 mins pre-heating the interior and battery just before you leave you need to include this in the cost of the journey - not just the kWh drawn from the battery on the way. It's the latter that owners typically quote.

 

[BTB 500]

It’s such a marginal increase in range by doing so, the only disadvantage is lack of regen until the battery is warm enough. I only really use the pre-warming of the cabin.

Which is fine, but again if an EV owner wants to quote the cost of making a particular journey then the additional mains power used before setting off should be included. In the same way the owner of a plug-in hybrid can't really boast about getting 100 mpg (or whatever) on a trip done mostly on electric power sourced from the mains at home.

 

[philnewmerc]

Can't believe this 'fact thread' is still going - but it is entertaining !

 

[clk320x]

Which is fine, but again if an EV owner wants to quote the cost of making a particular journey then the additional mains power used before setting off should be included. In the same way the owner of a plug-in hybrid can't really boast about getting 100 mpg (or whatever) on a trip done mostly on electric power sourced from the mains at home.

Any figures I’ve quoted are the actual cost incurred if you’re aiming that at me.

 

[BTB 500]

Interesting

Regardless of how it’s costed i.e. pre-conditioning from a mains supply that may or may not be at a ‘cheap’ rate, looks like it gets about a 15% increase in range when pre-conditioned at freezing point.

I mean, yes in terms of quoted ‘miles per kWh’ that would be relevant, but do people generally also quote the mpg of ICE vehicles differently for summer and winter for example?

I don’t recall reading many manufacturers specs, magazine reviews or even owners quoting mpg figures for say winter and summer.

It’s widely acknowledged though that all vehicles will use more energy (fuel) in extremes of cold though.

On the other hand, realistically how many months of the years in average UK conditions would this pre-conditioning (or pre-heating cabin etc) be necessary. I’m sure I have seen threads on here with people boasting that they don’t use their central heating until late October or something and probably don’t use it much after say end of March - I suspect similar to how often we have to scrape our cars or use heated seats etc

Certainly useful to consider this but probably more of an issue if you live somewhere particularly cold I would guess?

I only mentioned this as a reply to @Bobby Dazzler 's question about whether "EV evangelists" ever bent the truth. I have seen recent posts here where people have claimed very low costs for making a particular journey (£1.50 is the one that sticks in my mind), when quite likely the actual cost including mains pre-heating and/or conditioning would have been more than double that. Still cheap, but not as cheap as they were claiming so bending the truth IMHO.

 

[clk320x]

I only mentioned this as a reply to @Bobby Dazzler 's question about whether "EV evangelists" ever bent the truth. I have seen recent posts here where people have claimed very low costs for making a particular journey (£1.50 is the one that sticks in my mind), when quite likely the actual cost including mains pre-heating and/or conditioning would have been more than double that. Still cheap, but not as cheap as they were claiming so bending the truth IMHO.

That may have been me, Surrey to East Mids? That journey didn’t even start from home so obviously no pre-heating or pre-conditioning, in fact I barely ever use that feature.

 

[BTB 500]

Any figures I’ve quoted are the actual cost incurred if you’re aiming that at me.

I wasn't, but if you pre-heat from the mains do you know the actual cost of that?

 

[clk320x]

I wasn't, but if you pre-heat from the mains do you know the actual cost of that?

I do, because now I’ve set my charger to stop providing the car power after off-peak time anyway, if I pre-heat it does so from the battery as I’m never eeking out every possible mile of range. I think I usually use about 2% to pre-heat the cabin to 25c on a freezing day. On the other hand, most days I just leave it - the heating is instant so the car warms up pretty quick.

 

[BTB 500]

It’s such a marginal increase in range by doing so, the only disadvantage is lack of regen until the battery is warm enough. I only really use the pre-warming of the cabin.

Per the screenshot I posted (from the Model S handbook) it looks like pre-warming the cabin may also heat the drive battery:

 

[Petrol Pete]

 

[clk320x]

Per the screenshot I posted (from the Model S handbook) it looks like pre-warming the cabin may also heat the drive battery:

View attachment 150234

Fair enough, I don’t use ‘defrost’ though - just switch the heating on. Not sure if that does the same thing.

Comfort>Money though IMO anyway if affordable.

 

[philnewmerc]

Absolutely. My point though is that with an ICE car you may use a little more fuel, which is reflected in your MPG for a particular trip. But with an EV if you spend 45 mins pre-heating the interior and battery just before you leave you need to include this in the cost of the journey - not just the kWh drawn from the battery on the way. It's the latter that owners typically quote.

I think this is fair comment. Most EV drivers believe what their car's on board readout says, no mention of cost to pre heat the cabin or the cost of heating losses just in charging (said top be 10-15%). Of course the EV will still be mega efficient (if charged slowly, e.g., overnight) but most petrol heads know you cannot trust what the car says. And of course: driving at 65+ mph is somehow akin to diving into a wormhole in EV land. ("And anyway, it's not been possible to exceed 65 mph in the UK since 1978.... so there")

 

[Will]

So let’s get this straight - the argument over pre-heating/pre-conditioning an EV is that they cost a bit more to run in cold weather (like an ICE vehicle), but it is accepted that despite any additional cost in this way, that they’re still a lot cheaper to run than an ICE car anyway.

And we’ve established an anxiety over people breaking down in a biblical snowstorm traffic jam whereby everyone will be stuck nose-to-tail in EVs that are low on charge with small capacity, worn out batteries and there is no charger in site?

Neither seem like compelling reasons not to buy an EV for most people if I’m honest?

 

[clk320x]

And anyway, it's not been possible to exceed 65 mph in the UK since 1978.... so there

Cos we’re always stuck in snowstorms

 

[Will]

Cos we’re always stuck in snowstorms

Whilst towing a caravan, so you cannot charge up either even after the four hour break!

 

[philnewmerc]

So let’s get this straight - the argument over pre-heating/pre-conditioning an EV is that they cost a bit more to run in cold weather (like an ICE vehicle), but it is accepted that despite any additional cost in this way, that they’re still a lot cheaper to run than an ICE car anyway.

And we’ve established an anxiety over people breaking down in a biblical snowstorm traffic jam whereby everyone will be stuck nose-to-tail in EVs that are low on charge with small capacity, worn out batteries and there is no charger in site?

Neither seem like compelling reasons not to buy an EV for most people if I’m honest?

No. My comment was purely factual out of interest. I made no mention of 'and therefore EVs are shit' - this is what the EV fanatic reads into normal factual discussion... ALL. THE. TIME.

There are only very much cheaper if you can charge overnight, and you ignore the increased depreciation (which is fair as most of them are on pcp/company deal)

 

[Will]

No. My comment was purely factual out of interest. I made no mention of 'and therefore EVs are shit' - this is what the EV fanatic reads into normal factual discussion... ALL. THE. TIME.

There are only very much cheaper if you can charge overnight, and you ignore the increased depreciation (which is fair as most of them are on pcp/company deal)

I didn’t quote you or respond to your post, it was a general summary of the last couple of pages on this thread

I think the problem with claiming that EVs suffer high depreciation (which they may well do!) is that they would then be very cheap to buy secondhand.

So the argument made that they are unaffordable seems to fall somewhat flat on it’s face

And high depreciation could well be offset with reduced running costs (fuel and servicing, for example) compared to other comparable ICE vehicles that also depreciate too

FWIW, I’m no EV-fanboy. I drive older large petrol engined vehicles usually that have done most of their depreciation, but I do sense some resistance to change and a lot of people seem very defensive of their choices in an attempt to justify their own decisions.

EVs are definitely taking over though and V8s are out, as much as I’ve enjoyed them over the last two decades