Speeding

[pillow]

Safe driving requires the development of skills and judgement, and then the application of those skills and judgement. By concentrating almost exclusively on speed limit compliance as the primary criterion on which safety is judged, the myriad of other factors - observation, hazard perception, vehicle control, etc. - are diminished in their importance to the detriment of safety. It's about striking a balance, and I'm firmly of the view that the balance has become skewed in a way that harms safety rather than promotes it.

Driver education and training, focussing on skills development and use, would deliver significant benefits. But it's easier to dumb things down by having automated (or semi-automated) speed limit enforcement so that's what we have. The example of someone travelling at inappropriate speed for the conditions, but below the limit, on an NSL road demonstrates the failure of the speed limit compliance approach. And the answer isn't to reduce the limit.

So what does this look like in practice?

Scrap all speed limits and significantly increase the criteria to acquire a driving license?

Regular retesting?


Help me out and give me an idea; if you were the man in charge how you would turn this vision into a reality.

 

[st13phil]

Scrap all speed limits

Why do you persist in this line? I have not at any point said scrap speed limits. I have said stop over-emphasising their importance to the exclusion of other factors that collectively reduce risk.

And yes, I do advocate periodic driver re-testing. Ongoing driver training and development should also be encouraged. There are imaginative ways that could happen (and no, I'm not going to expand on what they are).

 

[pillow]

Why do you persist in this line? I have not at any point said scrap speed limits. I have said stop over-emphasising their importance to the exclusion of other factors that collectively reduce risk.

And yes, I do advocate periodic driver re-testing. Ongoing driver training and development should also be encouraged. There are imaginative ways that could happen (and no, I'm not going to expand on what they are).

Because the question at hand is whether speed limits and their enforcement is a problem.

So you want to keep your great ideas to yourself, good job.

 

[BigJase88]

Most towns in Scotland are now 20mph.

Honestly i have been overtaken by many pushbikes. I might as well of got out and pushed the bloody thing!

Ridiculous

 

[E55BOF]

And who decides what is appropriate and safe?

For me? I do, relying on the skills, judgement, hazard perception, observation, vehicle control etc. developed by a lifetime of driving.

Don't be so obtuse; I'm not advocating a free-for-all, but to apply the same speed limits in all circumstances and on all roads to a teenager and a driver with decades of experience is illogical. Until somebody comes up with a better system - highly unlikely - those who both want to and are capable of making safe progress have no option but to break limits to do so.

Let me give you an example. On my way home from work, I join the M25 from an overbridge where all the junctions are controlled by traffic lights. It is late in the evening, the sightlines are excellent, and there's no other traffic. If the lights are red, I will ignore them and go through; it's perfectly safe to do so, and the only thing achieved by stopping is to extend my journey. "Because it's the law" is the legal justification that I must stop, but it achieves nothing, so it is not a logical justification. If there were no lights, I would do exactly the same; if it was safe, I would not stop.

 

[ALFAitalia]

I saw your points until that last post.......suggesting that running red lights is sensible or justifiable in anyway just lost you all credibility in my view.....Hopefully you wont be driving on any roads I'm on!!!

 

[BigJase88]

For me? I do, relying on the skills, judgement, hazard perception, observation, vehicle control etc. developed by a lifetime of driving.

Don't be so obtuse; I'm not advocating a free-for-all, but to apply the same speed limits in all circumstances and on all roads to a teenager and a driver with decades of experience is illogical. Until somebody comes up with a better system - highly unlikely - those who both want to and are capable of making safe progress have no option but to break limits to do so.

Let me give you an example. On my way home from work, I join the M25 from an overbridge where all the junctions are controlled by traffic lights. It is late in the evening, the sightlines are excellent, and there's no other traffic. If the lights are red, I will ignore them and go through; it's perfectly safe to do so, and the only thing achieved by stopping is to extend my journey. "Because it's the law" is the legal justification that I must stop, but it achieves nothing, so it is not a logical justification. If there were no lights, I would do exactly the same; if it was safe, I would not stop.

To be fair there is a pedestrian crossing at my local Tesco.

Folks or school kids press the button and either run off or have already crossed the road and there is nobody there. I just go through as pointless exercise stopping

 

[pillow]

Don't be so obtuse; I'm not advocating a free-for-all

If the lights are red, I will ignore them and go through;

You tell me not to be obtuse and then go on to say you pick and choose which laws you follow.

There are some silly speed limits on certain roads, and I had hoped that some on this thread would have good suggestions on how to make things better.

The rational for speed limits is pretty obvious. The lower the limit, the lower the damage potential of any accident. Limits are also easy to follow, easy to monitor and easy to produce evidence for if the need arises.

Are they perfect? No. Do they do a job? Yes. Is there a better option? On the basis of this thread; no.

 

[E55BOF]

I saw your points until that last post.......suggesting that running red lights is sensible or justifiable in anyway just lost you all credibility in my view.....Hopefully you wont be driving on any roads I'm on!!!

Obedience of fools, guidance of wise men...

Traffic lights achieve nothing when there's nothing to be controlled by them. You have nothing to fear; all I'm doing is applying the normal rules of the road when the red light serves no useful purpose. Logical, I think.

 

[E55BOF]

You tell me not to be obtuse and then go on to say you pick and choose which laws you follow.

There are some silly speed limits on certain roads, and I had hoped that some on this thread would have good suggestions on how to make things better.

The rational for speed limits is pretty obvious. The lower the limit, the lower the damage potential of any accident. Limits are also easy to follow, easy to monitor and easy to produce evidence for if the need arises.

Are they perfect? No. Do they do a job? Yes. Is there a better option? On the basis of this thread; no.

That's not quite what I said, though, is it, and if that is what you perceive to be my meaning, your perception is incorrect. Again, obedience of fools, guidance of wise men...

 

[pillow]

That's not quite what I said, though, is it, and if that is what you perceive to be my meaning, your perception is incorrect.

"If the lights are red, I will ignore them and go through"
You are presumably aware that it is illegal to pass through when traffic lights are showing red. You openly admit to doing so. You therefore deliberately break the law.

I assume you obey some laws (granted; this I am assuming).

Therefore you pick and choose which laws you follow, and which you don't.

Again, obedience of fools, guidance of wise men...

If you ever wind up in court, let me know how well this defence works.

 

[E55BOF]

Old military maxim: Never Assume; Check. Your assumption is correct, though.

You have a closed mind, and I do not, so I don't think we're going to agree, but think on this: I've not wound up in court in over fifty years, so maybe, just maybe, there's method in my madness and I know what I'm doing...

 

[pillow]

You have a closed mind, and I do not

You need to put those military maxims into practice more.

Unfortunately it seems like your perceptions are less accurate than mine.

 

[suty455]

I can see both sides of this, the issue with using your own judgement is not everybody thinks the same way, thats why we have Accidents and laws to ensure there is a basic framework which as a society we find acceptable so whilst it may be perfectly safe to pass through the red light as nothing is coming or there is no congestion on the motorway if we applied those rules then we all know there are some numptys who will use it as a excuse and just never stop regardless, such is human nature, I see no reason why if the motorway is empty we should not be able to travel at higher speeds managed by gantry signs, however before we do that we really need to train folks how to use them especially the foreigners who come from third world country's and have never seen a motorway before and so assume its fine to drive there BMW 7 series in the outside lane at 50 mph because its a fast car, if every one kept to the left we would see half the congestion we do now
I noticed in France that after I think it was 11pm some traffic lights just show orange that signifys you can pass if its safe to do so ie give way to the traffic with right of way.
The issue we have is the signals are all automatic and come on regardless smart motorways are a nightmare on Sundays when you would normally expect a weekday rush hour the lights and limits come on, so you have a virtually empty ,motorway limited to in one stretch 40mph its bonkers, we really need to infrastructure behind all this to work with us not against us and to actually manage the traffic not fight it.
My local council has zero idea about traffic and how to manage it, we have a newly built shopping centre which has an entrance and exit onto a dual carriage way which just happens to be the busiest road in Town so instead of routing traffic round the back of the centre and making the exit one way ie with the flow they decide to install 3 sets of lights truncating the dual carriageway the issues this has caused which to any driver would have been obvious before it was done are easy to see folks actually stop between lights on the dual carriageway going across it trying to get out of the shopping centre, not helped by the fact there is a pinch point either side of the junction where there are lights on one side for a junction and lights the other side both within 500m where the carriageway drops back to a single lane road, you can imagine firstly the carnage and secondly how many folks stay away in droves from this nightmare place, the reason? The local planning executive is a bicycle riding tree hugger who doesn't care about cars he just plans all the routes.
We need proper sensible folks in charge of traffic with an aim to move it along as quickly as possible and keep the roads flowing.

 

[Gazwould]

I wish , I don't live in a built up area , last 13,000 miles average speed 22 mph !

 

[E55BOF]

You need to put those military maxims into practice more.

Unfortunately it seems like your perceptions are less accurate than mine.

I think not. Enjoy your pootling...

 

[BTB 500]

Just down the road from us there's a narrow bridge over a small river. It's on a dead straight stretch of (quiet) road with excellent visibility, so if two vehicles are approaching from opposite directions then one or the other simply pulls over to the side to let the other cross:



Anyway shortly after we moved here something/someone hit one of the parapets, so they installed a temporary barrier along the damaged section. This runs along the verge so doesn't actually reduce the width of the road, but in their wisdom the council decided that mobile traffic lights were now needed to manage the contraflow Needless to say these were completely ignored by the locals and - amazingly - did get removed after a couple of months. Just as well as we've been here almost 11 months now and the parapet still hasn't been fixed!

As an aside I was idly watching a traffic cop show on TV some years back, and they were parked near some roadworks late at night nicking anyone who drove through on red because there was nothing coming the other way.

 

[Paulhick]

This is the bit I can’t fathom.
I’ve been done (quite rightly so ) for doing 43 in a 30.it was a built up area very close to the entrance to a school and I was given 100 quid fine and 3 points but a director at our place has been done doing 65 in a 50 on an empty motorway at 3am. He’s been done for a weeks salary. I just can’t see how he’s been given such a higher penalty for what I personally deem a lesser offence.

 

[suty455]

This is the bit I can’t fathom.
I’ve been done (quite rightly so ) for doing 43 in a 30.it was a built up area very close to the entrance to a school and I was given 100 quid fine and 3 points but a director at our place has been done doing 65 in a 50 on an empty motorway at 3am. He’s been done for a weeks salary. I just can’t see how he’s been given such a higher penalty for what I personally deem a lesser offence.

Fines are often based on the offenders ability to pay, you were probably hit with a sp30 he would have had I assume an sp50, he would also have had to wilfully drive past the speed warning gantry's or worse still done so in roadworks were people could potentially have been working. Motorway fines are more serious because of the increased speeds and potential to cause damage or death.

 

[m80]

but there's room for us all on the roads.

Not so sure these days.
I used to 'enjoy' my driving, now I see little opportunity.
From sheep to roadworks, to doddering poor sighted types, pushbikes ??? abreast, pedestrians on roads w/o walkway.... the list goes on.
Since passing car and bike tests in 77 / 78 the roads are much more congested. There are masses more idiots than just the idiot me using 'em.

Regular retesting?

and about flippin' time our gutless politicians saw the benefit of that strategy.


I'll ignore stupid laws. Simply driving at 31 in a 30 does that. But there are many other dumb examples that don't deserve any more respect then the fear of being caught.

As for speed limits being designed to accommodate the lowest denominator of driver, that means we make little or no progress in case the geriatric short sighted person in a 50 year old incapable car is out one day.

While I often don't have respect for a desk jockey who decided for some unfathomable reason that a limit will be ridiculously low, I'm also not sure we can all trust our own perceptions that were developed in a era of open roads that didn't have so many varied users.

I don't rush around as I used to. Partly because I find journeys more tiring doing that.

Rush if you must, but don't put me and mine in danger doing it.