The EV fact thread

[MikeInWimbledon]

I am planning on driving at Motorway speeds throughout and trust the SatNav to guide me to the charging stops as needed.

You're only doing 500 miles in France

Having filled up your EV - for free - at the Shuttle at Folkestone, 180 miles will get you to a very pleasant overnight stay near Epernay. A natural point to break.

Only on the following day will you will need a lunchtime break.

 

[philnewmerc]

Strangely I find the opposite - my town driving tends to be very short journeys so the BMS doesn’t have time to bring the battery to optimum temperature, so the watts/mile is higher - maybe 280/300. On a long motorway run the opposite applies - the car battery easily gets to temperature and then I see about 220 watts/mile, at normal (ie legal!) motorway speeds, which is about 330 miles in my Tesla. Less in the winter, largely because of wetter roads, which significantly increase consumption on all types of vehicles, but I can still easily see a range of 260-275 motorway miles - and that’s not hypermiling, or freezing, and I still have the headlights on when it’s dark.

But overall, in 4.5 years of just having EVs, I’ve genuinely found no issue at all. There have been journeys when I’ve stopped to fill up, usually just following what the car suggests. But the vast majority of my charging time (yes, I know I’m fortunate to have my own drive and charger) takes none of my time. Over the course of a year, I probably spend less time waiting for my EV to charge while on a journey than I used to spend at petrol stations (back in my days working for an oil company, we used to estimate that the average stop to fill up an ICE vehicle was between 11 and 13 minutes including the time to queue and pay).

Honestly this sounds incredible (in a good way). It would suit virtually everyone tbh (apart from the aural excitement, soul, etc etc etc yadda yadda yawn etc)

However, what's this bloke doing wrong then because this is more the sort of thing I see regarding normal motorway driving range:

"Fully charged and driving in chill at a pretty constant 75 motorway speed...200-225 was closer to the actual range we'd hit if we hadn't stopped for a charge.

This was confirmed again on the return journey. 40 mins to recharge might not seem like much, but at midnight after a day at work...I could do without it."

And a reply from another member:
"My default assumption for my long range 3 is 200 miles. I can stretch that if I have to, but most highway driving of 70+ MPH results in about 200 miles of realistic range (95% to 10%)."

Source:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-3-not-so-long-range.231264/

Obviously it won't be long before even this is a thing of the past so I'm not a 'EVs are a fad' type person, I'm just curious

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

However, one is infinitely quicker and more reliable than the other. Enter stage left, 'splash & dash'!

Infinitely? Impressive.

 

[PXW]

Honestly this sounds incredible (in a good way). It would suit virtually everyone tbh (apart from the aural excitement, soul, etc etc etc yadda yadda yawn etc)

However, what's this bloke doing wrong then because this is more the sort of thing I see regarding normal motorway driving range:

"Fully charged and driving in chill at a pretty constant 75 motorway speed...200-225 was closer to the actual range we'd hit if we hadn't stopped for a charge.

This was confirmed again on the return journey. 40 mins to recharge might not seem like much, but at midnight after a day at work...I could do without it."

And a reply from another member:
"My default assumption for my long range 3 is 200 miles. I can stretch that if I have to, but most highway driving of 70+ MPH results in about 200 miles of realistic range (95% to 10%)."

Source:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-3-not-so-long-range.231264/

Obviously it won't be long before even this is a thing of the past so I'm not a 'EVs are a fad' type person, I'm just curious

From the same thread on TMC:

M3 LR (bought march 2021) - I drove Manchester to Heathrow a couple of weeks ago - a 380 mile round trip. Got to Heathrow with over 50% charge, so I could have made it there and back on one 100% charge. I had no traffic though, and drove at 70mph most of the time. Weather was also around 15C.

There could be a number of variables - weather (esp wet/windy), vehicle load, driving style, especially acceleration. I freely admit I don’t drive the Tesla as hard as I drove my Merc, which is mainly due to the character of the cars - I happen to like the very relaxed quiet EV experience - but that will also help my EV fuel consumption.

My range etc are what I find for my car and my driving. But to be honest, the longer I have lived with the EV, the less focussed on all this I have become anyway. It just works the way it works, and I’m about as bothered as I was trying to prove that my old Merc S212 could deliver the stated 0-60 time.

 

[Noitz]

Infinitely? Impressive.

Not every statement is to be taken literally and you know exactly what I meant. Replying for the sake of it? Or just trying to be a smart Alec, neither are required.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Not every statement is to be taken literally and you know exactly what I meant. Replying for the sake of it? Or just trying to be a smart Alec, neither are required.

Not every statement is to be taken seriously and you know exactly what I meant.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

What's the EV facts on MG EV's ?

I was sat at a cafe yesterday when a smart grey SUV slid up quietly to chit chat to the waiter.

Didn't recognise it at first, then saw the badge. Checked it out, and they appear to be £12k used / £20k ex-demo with huge amounts of stock around.

 

[Will]

What's the EV facts on MG EV's ?

I was sat at a cafe yesterday when a smart grey SUV slid up quietly to chit chat to the waiter.

Didn't recognise it at first, then saw the badge. Checked it out, and they appear to be £12k used / £20k ex-demo with huge amounts of stock around.



View attachment 153091

Presumably he was in a panic, asking the waiter where the nearest charger was or if he could run an extension lead out to get him by?

And Mike, I’m sure you’ll stop these pointless coffee breaks the moment you decide to drive your ICE vehicle on any sort of lengthy trip, too? I mean it wouldn’t have been possible to enjoy your visit whilst your car sat idle (and if an EV, perhaps on charge if required) now would it?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Presumably he was in a panic, asking the waiter where the nearest charger was or if he could run an extension lead out to get him by?

And Mike, I’m sure you’ll stop these pointless coffee breaks the moment you decide to drive your ICE vehicle on any sort of lengthy trip, too? I mean it wouldn’t have been possible to enjoy your visit whilst your car sat idle (and if an EV, perhaps on charge if required) now would it?

Nah, plenty of charger points around. Had to drive past thirty empty charger points to find a place in this wretched multi-storey car park. They over-provide because it's another money earner for the car park.

 

[PXW]

What's the EV facts on MG EV's ?

I was sat at a cafe yesterday when a smart grey SUV slid up quietly to chit chat to the waiter.

Didn't recognise it at first, then saw the badge. Checked it out, and they appear to be £12k used / £20k ex-demo with huge amounts of stock around.



View attachment 153091

We have one. Bought it a year after we bought the Tesla, mainly for round-town local stuff and to have the benefit of a decent amount of space for tip runs (my Tesla has white upholstery!).

Bought it pre-reg for a little over £20k, so it’s one of the cheaper EV offerings. It’s nowhere near as sophisticated as the Teslas etc, and you can tell it’s been built down to a price. but it drives fine, has a decent amount of kit and has proven reliable - and it has the 7 year warranty. Quoted WLTP range is mid 160s on ours (an early 44.5KwH model) and in real life we get 120 winter and about 140 summer. Charging is fine on our wall charger at home but it’s a bit of a pain if you are out and about as it will only do CCS “fast” charging up to 50Kw, and in practise we often see little more than half that. But we also rarely take it far from home - done the odd 100 mile round trip, which is no problem.

The £12k secondhand price is about right and about what I’d expect if we were selling ours. Haven’t looked at pre-reg stocks, but I think the current model has a bigger battery and better range than ours.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

We have one. Bought it a year after we bought the Tesla, mainly for round-town local stuff and to have the benefit of a decent amount of space for tip runs (my Tesla has white upholstery!).

Bought it pre-reg for a little over £20k, so it’s one of the cheaper EV offerings. It’s nowhere near as sophisticated as the Teslas etc, and you can tell it’s been built down to a price. but it drives fine, has a decent amount of kit and has proven reliable - and it has the 7 year warranty. Quoted WLTP range is mid 160s on ours (an early 44.5KwH model) and in real life we get 120 winter and about 140 summer. Charging is fine on our wall charger at home but it’s a bit of a pain if you are out and about as it will only do CCS “fast” charging up to 50Kw, and in practise we often see little more than half that. But we also rarely take it far from home - done the odd 100 mile round trip, which is no problem.

The £12k secondhand price is about right and about what I’d expect if we were selling ours. Haven’t looked at pre-reg stocks, but I think the current model has a bigger battery and better range than ours.

I no speaka da language…. What’s the issue with CCS only and charging rates of only half that?

I see written specs talking of speeds as 50kwh and 100kwh. Is that a later spec 2020, or is this all just a BS thing?

(Again, fully understand that as a runabout you’d only be using a commercial charger less than a half a dozen times a year)

 

[PXW]

I no speaka da language…. What’s the issue with CCS only and charging rates of only half that?

I see written specs talking of speeds as 50kwh and 100kwh. Is that a later spec 2020, or is this all just a BS thing?

(Again, fully understand that as a runabout you’d only be using a commercial charger less than a half a dozen times a year)

CCS is the rapid charger standard, and the chargers that can deliver DC current at 50, 100, 250, 350kw etc use that plug. Like most EVs, the MG ZS has a combination charger socket that can take a CCS or the “type 2” connection which is the one you find on AC slow chargers, like the one I have at home.

The speed of charge depends on what the charger can deliver but also on what the car can accept. So if your car can only take say 100kw DC then that’s the fastest you would ever see even if you plugged into a 350kw charger. But in practise speeds would usually be lower due to state of charge,
Sophistication of the battery management system etc, hence my comment about the MG often only seeing half of the theoretical max.

Similarly, cars can accept AC charge at different rates - for example, 11kw for the Tesla, 6.6kw for the MG. But that is less important as the max for a typical home AC charger is only about 7.4kw anyway, assuming the house is on a single phase supply.

My early ZS has a maximum DC charge rate of only 50kw. The more recent ones can I think take more. For comparison, the Tesla can take 250kw - yet another reason why it’s the family choice for longer journeys.

 

[BTB 500]

High charge rates mean high continuous currents, which the wiring in the car must be specified to handle (likely 500A or more for 350 kW). There would be build costs associated with this, so I can see why more budget-oriented brands/models might only support lower charge rates. Of course smaller capacity batteries wouldn't need huge charge rates for reasonable charge times anyway.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

CCS is the rapid charger standard, and the chargers that can deliver DC current at 50, 100, 250, 350kw etc use that plug. Like most EVs, the MG ZS has a combination charger socket that can take a CCS or the “type 2” connection which is the one you find on AC slow chargers, like the one I have at home.

The speed of charge depends on what the charger can deliver but also on what the car can accept. So if your car can only take say 100kw DC then that’s the fastest you would ever see even if you plugged into a 350kw charger. But in practise speeds would usually be lower due to state of charge,
Sophistication of the battery management system etc, hence my comment about the MG often only seeing half of the theoretical max.

Similarly, cars can accept AC charge at different rates - for example, 11kw for the Tesla, 6.6kw for the MG. But that is less important as the max for a typical home AC charger is only about 7.4kw anyway, assuming the house is on a single phase supply.

My early ZS has a maximum DC charge rate of only 50kw. The more recent ones can I think take more. For comparison, the Tesla can take 250kw - yet another reason why it’s the family choice for longer journeys.

OK, so not a problem specific to the MG, beyond the limitations of the early ZS. Just a generic issue for EV charging... (I think)

 

[Bellow]

Toyota have competed in a couple of 24 hour races with a hydrogen ICE Corolla:

Yep, and a look into its interior shows it be crammed with fuel tanks - four I believe. Another pointer to the restrictions of geometry and scale imposed on high pressure vessels. Admittedly, that was with the hydrogen in vapour form.

Toyota GR Corolla Powered By Liquid Hydrogen Makes 24h Racing Debut | Carscoops

The updated Toyota GR Corolla's liquid hydrogen-powered 1.6-liter three-cylinder has double the cruising range

www.carscoops.com

Now using liquid hydrogen, but there's this to contend with:

''One of the challenges of using liquid hydrogen is that it must be kept at temperatures lower than -253℃ during filling and storage,''

Minus 253C. Anyone still believing hydrogen is the future needs to consider a car full of (vapour) hydrogen tanks leaving little space for what the car is intended for, namely, transportation of people and goods or, what it takes to chill to minus 253c (a mere 20C above the unattainable absolute zero) and the consequences of that level of refrigeration being removed/failing.

 

[BTB 500]

Yep, and a look into its interior shows it be crammed with fuel tanks - four I believe. Another pointer to the restrictions of geometry and scale imposed on high pressure vessels. Admittedly, that was with the hydrogen in vapour form.

Now using liquid hydrogen, but there's this to contend with:

''One of the challenges of using liquid hydrogen is that it must be kept at temperatures lower than -253℃ during filling and storage,''

Minus 253C. Anyone still believing hydrogen is the future needs to consider a car full of (vapour) hydrogen tanks leaving little space for what the car is intended for, namely, transportation of people and goods or, what it takes to chill to minus 253c (a mere 20C above the unattainable absolute zero) and the consequences of that level of refrigeration being removed/failing.

JCB have already done hydrogen combustion conversions on a Mercedes truck and a Sprinter van ... no idea what their storage solution is, but these are running / driving vehicles:

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[Bellow]

JCB have already done hydrogen combustion conversions on a Mercedes truck and a Sprinter van ... no idea what their storage solution is, but these are running / driving vehicles:

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Presumably the same method as with its earthmovers. Small tank on vehicle replenished from Industrial gas bottles at 100kg tare per kg of stored hydrogen. For the earthmovers, industrial gas bottles are delivered to site in racks and decanted into the vehicle tank. No mention of pressure of onboard storage but not critical to range as gas rack is mere metres away and neither the converted van or truck as runabouts appear equipped for on-road range. I doubt (looking at its shape) that the onboard tank can match the industrial bottle's 350 bar pressure so only storing a small quantity - but with refill tanks immediately at hand.
1 kg of hydrogen has the same fuel value as circa 4 litres of petrol. Would you contemplate any vehicle that had a fuel tank that weighed 100kg for every 4 litres of petrol? If I did my petrol tank would weigh 4125kg - which is around double the weight of the vehicle it is in. But that Bamford finds all of this acceptable tells us just how far electrification has to go to be suitable for heavy vehicles.

 

[markjay]

Yep, and a look into its interior shows it be crammed with fuel tanks - four I believe. Another pointer to the restrictions of geometry and scale imposed on high pressure vessels. Admittedly, that was with the hydrogen in vapour form.

Now using liquid hydrogen, but there's this to contend with:

''One of the challenges of using liquid hydrogen is that it must be kept at temperatures lower than -253℃ during filling and storage,''

Minus 253C. Anyone still believing hydrogen is the future needs to consider a car full of (vapour) hydrogen tanks leaving little space for what the car is intended for, namely, transportation of people and goods or, what it takes to chill to minus 253c (a mere 20C above the unattainable absolute zero) and the consequences of that level of refrigeration being removed/failing.

Hydrogen becomes liquid at minus 253°C at atmospheric pressure. That is, if you cool Hydrogen down to minus 253°C, you can store it in liquid form in an open and unpressurised vessel.

However, cars carrying Hydrogen tanks store the gas under pressure, and without temperature control. It's essentially the same as any other gas delivered in pressurised containers (cylinders).

Incidentally, in previous life, we used to produce Hydrogen in the field by mixing chemicals (caustic soda and water plus some other things) in a cylinder then watch the pressure gauge go up as the Hydrogen is being produced inside the cylinder, when it reached the desired pressure we would use the Hydrogen to inflate weather balloons.

 

[Bellow]

Hydrogen becomes liquid at minus 253°C at atmospheric pressure. That is, if you cool Hydrogen down to minus 253°C, you can store it in liquid form in an open and unpressurised vessel.

You make it sound oh so easy. Minus 253C - a kick in the **** from the unobtainable (absolute zero). Allow the temp to rise and the hydrogen vapourise..... Best not to think about the consequences.

However, cars carrying Hydrogen tanks store the gas under pressure, and without temperature control. It's essentially the same as any other gas delivered in pressurised containers (cylinders).

Really, it isn't. LPG sits in its tank at between 4 and 8 bar depending on temperature. Hydrogen in industrial tanks is at 350 bar and in Toyota's (please-don't-ask-the -price) carbon fibre tank at 700 bar. Increasing the strength of a tank 100 fold is not a trivial undertaking.
On top of that, the energy expended in pressuring a gas to those pressures is considerable. One third of the hydrogen's fuel value is used to compress it for storage. Wasteful.

 

[markjay]

You make it sound oh so easy. Minus 253C - a kick in the **** from the unobtainable (absolute zero). Allow the temp to rise and the hydrogen vapourise..... Best not to think about the consequences.

Really, it isn't. LPG sits in its tank at between 4 and 8 bar depending on temperature. Hydrogen in industrial tanks is at 350 bar and in Toyota's (please-don't-ask-the -price) carbon fibre tank at 700 bar. Increasing the strength of a tank 100 fold is not a trivial undertaking.
On top of that, the energy expended in pressuring a gas to those pressures is considerable. One third of the hydrogen's fuel value is used to compress it for storage. Wasteful.

I think we are saying the same thing....

My point regarding storing of liquid Hydrogen at atmospheric pressure wasn't that it's 'easy' to do, instead it was to say that this is not how Hydrogen for cars is stored, and so it's not relevant to our discussion.

Regarding storing Hydrogen in pressurised tanks, of course it's not trivial, but my point was that pressurised Hydrogen gas stored in cars does not require cooling.