The EV fact thread

[Bellow]

I think we are saying the same thing....

My point regarding storing of liquid Hydrogen at atmospheric pressure wasn't that it's 'easy' to do, instead it was to say that this is not how Hydrogen for cars is stored, and so it's not relevant to our discussion.

Regarding storing Hydrogen in pressurised tanks, of course it's not trivial, but my point was that pressurised Hydrogen gas stored in cars does not require cooling.

Begs the question - why Toyota did just that.

 

[BTB 500]

Hydrogen in industrial tanks is at 350 bar and in Toyota's (please-don't-ask-the -price) carbon fibre tank at 700 bar. Increasing the strength of a tank 100 fold is not a trivial undertaking.

The fact is though that Toyota have been selling the hydrogen powered Mirai (gen 1 and then gen 2) for 10 years, and Hyundai their ix35 FCEV and then Nero for 11 years. Then there's BMW's new iX5 Hydrogen, and Vauxhall's new fuel cell Vivaro. And the hydrogen fuelled vehicles being trialled by Ford and JLR. And the hydrogen buses operated successfully by TfL since 2004. So although it's clearly not as simple as pouring petrol or diesel into a tank the technical challenges obviously aren't insurmountable.

Of course burning hydrogen in an ICE is much more experimental. JCB claim this has an advantage over fuel cells in torque-hungry applications traditionally powered by diesel (such as their site vehicles), but Toyota have been looking at it for road car use since 2017 ... testing a prototype Corolla variant (5 occupants plus luggage) in 2022:

Toyota develops a prototype hydrogen combustion road car

Following development in Japanese motorsport, the Corolla Cross Hydrogen Concept is being tested and evaluated

www.toyota-europe.com

 

[markjay]

Begs the question - why Toyota did just that.

Do Toyota have a car that stores liquid Hydrogen at -253⁰C in the boot?

 

[Bellow]

Do Toyota have a car that stores liquid Hydrogen at -253⁰C in the boot?

The competition Yaris started with vapour storage and moved to liquefied. A one-off car used in a very specific circumstance.

 

[markjay]

The fact is though that Toyota have been selling the hydrogen powered Mirai (gen 1 and then gen 2) for 10 years, and Hyundai their ix35 FCEV and then Nero for 11 years. Then there's BMW's new iX5 Hydrogen, and Vauxhall's new fuel cell Vivaro. And the hydrogen fuelled vehicles being trialled by Ford and JLR. And the hydrogen buses operated successfully by TfL since 2004. So although it's clearly not as simple as pouring petrol or diesel into a tank the technical challenges obviously aren't insurmountable.

Of course burning hydrogen in an ICE is much more experimental. JCB claim this has an advantage over fuel cells in torque-hungry applications traditionally powered by diesel (such as their site vehicles), but Toyota have been looking at it for road car use since 2017 ... testing a prototype Corolla variant (5 occupants plus luggage) in 2022:

Toyota develops a prototype hydrogen combustion road car

Following development in Japanese motorsport, the Corolla Cross Hydrogen Concept is being tested and evaluated

www.toyota-europe.com

The basic issue I see with Hydrogen-fuelled ICE is that it does not address the cost and complexity of manufacturing and building an ICE engine and transmission, a cost that (unlike electric and electronic components) can not really be reduced further in future.

It might work as a stop-gap measure until electric cars are manufactured in very large numbers and their cost goes down, but as soon as this happens, building (and running) any ICE car will become commercially unviable.

 

[BTB 500]

The basic issue I see with Hydrogen-fuelled ICE is that it does not address the cost and complexity of manufacturing and building an ICE engine and transmission, a cost that (unlike electric and electronic components) can not really be reduced further in future.

It might work as a stop-gap measure until electric cars are manufactured in very large numbers and their cost goes down, but as soon as this happens, building (and running) any ICE car will become commercially unviable.

I'm not really sure why Toyota are exploring it for road cars (their rationale must be out there somewhere - I've not actively looked for it). It's a much more viable option for zero emission trucks - there are practical reasons why you can't just scale up EV car technology to give the power and range that many HGV operators require. Also for things like coaches - pulling over for a 3 hour 'quick charge' halfway up the M1 wouldn't be popular with the passengers

 

[Bellow]

The fact is though that Toyota have been selling the hydrogen powered Mirai (gen 1 and then gen 2) for 10 years, and Hyundai their ix35 FCEV and then Nero for 11 years. Then there's BMW's new iX5 Hydrogen, and Vauxhall's new fuel cell Vivaro. And the hydrogen fuelled vehicles being trialled by Ford and JLR. And the hydrogen buses operated successfully by TfL since 2004. So although it's clearly not as simple as pouring petrol or diesel into a tank the technical challenges obviously aren't insurmountable.

Taking Ford only here as an example, it has trialled gas turbines, free-piston engines, and you can be sure everything anyone else has ever shown interest in. Trialling is not a synonym of producing.
But yes, it is obviously possible. My principal objection to hydrogen is that it is not suited to bulk storage - which obviously is a prerequisite of any energy medium destined to be used at scale - as would be the case if FCVs gain traction.

Of course burning hydrogen in an ICE is much more experimental. JCB claim this has an advantage over fuel cells in torque-hungry applications traditionally powered by diesel (such as their site vehicles), but Toyota have been looking at it for road car use since 2017 ... testing a prototype Corolla variant (5 occupants plus luggage) in 2022:

JCB has its own agenda. At a guess, that is kicking against electrification - which. as many have already observed, isn't best suited to very heavy vehicles.

Toyota develops a prototype hydrogen combustion road car

Following development in Japanese motorsport, the Corolla Cross Hydrogen Concept is being tested and evaluated

www.toyota-europe.com

I admire Toyota for arriving at the view that we should explore carbon neutral combustible fuels and not merely accept electrification but when I read:
''Toyota’s engineers equipped the 1.6l 3-cylinder turbo engine from the GR Corolla with high-pressure hydrogen direct injection engine technology from motorsport activity.''
Ie, that its base engine is an expensive competition engine, I'm reminded of the savage internal pressures burning hydrogen releases and the need for robust construction to cater for it. That is but one of combusting hydrogen's challenges...
If, hydrogen is to be a fuel source for vehicles, FCs are the better choice as more efficient than ICE. With storage at a premium, you'd best maximise what you can from what you can carry.

 

[Bellow]

The basic issue I see with Hydrogen-fuelled ICE is that it does not address the cost and complexity of manufacturing and building an ICE engine and transmission, a cost that (unlike electric and electronic components) can not really be reduced further in future.

The cost of ICE could be slashed immediately. All it takes is for carbon neutral fuels and thus being able to abandon chasing the very last saving in CO2 emissions that 'gifted' us the diesel in its current guise. Carbon neutral fuels and we can throw the hideously expensive diesel engine overboard to join its creator.

 

[BTB 500]

I admire Toyota for arriving at the view that we should explore carbon neutral combustible fuels and not merely accept electrification but when I read:
''Toyota’s engineers equipped the 1.6l 3-cylinder turbo engine from the GR Corolla with high-pressure hydrogen direct injection engine technology from motorsport activity.''
Ie, that its base engine is an expensive competition engine,

That was 2022 ... just a prototype to show that a practical 5 seat hydrogen combustion car was technically possible. They have a more 'normal' 2 litre 4 cyl now that gives around 160 bhp.

 

[Bellow]

That was 2022 ... just a prototype to show that a practical 5 seat hydrogen combustion car was technically possible. They have a more 'normal' 2 litre 4 cyl now that gives around 160 bhp.

Showboating then - or ramping the share price...
Returning to the hydrogen issue re if FCVs do become a thing. Where will the bulk storage/re-fuelling facilities be? How far out of town will they be - or will they be smack in the middle of residential areas? There appears to be no objections to building large battery buffer sites (essential for high speed EV recharging) in densely populated areas despite the batteries' inherent instability. Are we going to end up with time bombs where we least want them? Oil refineries don't exist in cities - for very good reasons.

 

[BTB 500]

Returning to the hydrogen issue re if FCVs do become a thing. Where will the bulk storage/re-fuelling facilities be?

Where do TfL store the hydrogen for the 20 double-decker buses they use now?

Oil refineries don't exist in cities - for very good reasons.

Not least of which is the small problem of getting one of these up to the gates ...

 

[markjay]

The cost of ICE could be slashed immediately. All it takes is for carbon neutral fuels and thus being able to abandon chasing the very last saving in CO2 emissions that 'gifted' us the diesel in its current guise. Carbon neutral fuels and we can throw the hideously expensive diesel engine overboard to join its creator.

The cost of making anything from a block of metal using expensive machining and metalworks proceses cannot really be reduced significantly. There are bottlenecks in the product manufacturing line due to time-consuming work done by robots and CNC machines operated by skilled worker, whose numbers are limited. I used to contract for Delphi Diesel Systems and I am well aware of the limits on reducing manufacturing cost of Diesel high pressure fuel pumps, for example (at some point the factory started 'remanufacturing' old pumps, to save the cost of manufacturing the pump body - it requires many hours of expensive machinery).

This is in total contrast to anything electric or electronic, once the R&D has been paid and the item is mass produced, the manufacturing cost plummets like a free-falling lift.

Then, there's the issue of servicing and maintenance - a major consideration for any fleet buyers out there. ICE (and automatic transmissions) will always require servicing, while the servicing costs of EVs are near-zero.

 

[markjay]

There are two very important aspects of electrification, that aren't often discussed.

The first is the fact that the energy to power EVs is produced centrally, as opposed to ICE cars where each car effectively carries its own private miniature power plant. The reason that this is important is that centralised energy production allows us to swap the fuel quickly and seamlessly - from coal to gas, from gas to wind, from wing to nuclear, etc. Once all cars are fed by electricity from the grid, the transition to renewable energy - or to any other form of clean energy - can be done as a gradual process without affecting motorists. In contrast, it took us 20 years to get cars to fully stop using leaded fuel, and it will take us 20 years again to get rid of oil burning vehicles, etc.

The second is that we already use electricity to power very many things, from home appliances through factory machinery to trains, and there are advantages in having just one type of energy production method to supply all of our energy needs, rather than have some provided by electricity, some provided by gas, some provided by liquid fuel, etc. At the very list, we will not need a complex network of overlapping separate distribution systems, as we have today (power lines, gas pipes, and petrol stations). Having just one type of energy for all our energy needs will significantly simplify our energy distribution infrastructure.

This is where you get a disparity between the aim of governments who our looking at designing the country's infrastructure for the next generation, and the goals of private individuals who understandably are more concerned with the immediate cost and inconvenience that the proposed changes may cause them personally.

 

[Alfie]

The cost of making anything from a block of metal using expensive machining and metalworks proceses cannot really be reduced significantly. There are bottlenecks in the product manufacturing line due to time-consuming work done by robots and CNC machines operated by skilled worker, whose numbers are limited. I used to contract for Delphi Diesel Systems and I am well aware of the limits on reducing manufacturing cost of Diesel high pressure fuel pumps, for example (at some point the factory started 'remanufacturing' old pumps, to save the cost of manufacturing the pump body - it requires many hours of expensive machinery).

This is in total contrast to anything electric or electronic, once the R&D has been paid and the item is mass produced, the manufacturing cost plummets like a free-falling lift.

Then, there's the issue of servicing and maintenance - a major consideration for any fleet buyers out there. ICE (and automatic transmissions) will always require servicing, while the servicing costs of EVs are near-zero.

Except the cost on the environment and communities of extracting the rare earth metals needed. I really dont think the cost of production is something to shout about for EV's.

 

[markjay]

Except the cost on the environment and communities of extracting the rare earth metals needed. I really dont think the cost of production is something to shout about for EV's.

True, but on the other hand, there's drilling for oil, refining it, and not to mention wars about oil... I think that finding the exact overall effect isn't simple, neither for ICE not EVs. My own personal view is that no firm of personal transport will ever be environmentally friendly.

 

[Bellow]

The cost of making anything from a block of metal using expensive machining and metalworks proceses cannot really be reduced significantly. There are bottlenecks in the product manufacturing line due to time-consuming work done by robots and CNC machines operated by skilled worker, whose numbers are limited. I used to contract for Delphi Diesel Systems and I am well aware of the limits on reducing manufacturing cost of Diesel high pressure fuel pumps, for example (at some point the factory started 'remanufacturing' old pumps, to save the cost of manufacturing the pump body - it requires many hours of expensive machinery).

All you've done there is looked at existing technology and concluded the obvious.
A low cost engine will not be a diesel - for the reasons you cite. Diesel engines even if fuelled by carbon neutral fuels have no future (other that where nothing else can be made to work - eg haulage) on account of their very high NOx emissions. Dead in the water - other technologies are needed.
To take but one possible alternative, Take a parts count for an opposed piston engine and compare it to a common rail diesel. You'll only need your fingers to count the parts on a OP engine.

This is in total contrast to anything electric or electronic, once the R&D has been paid and the item is mass produced, the manufacturing cost plummets like a free-falling lift.

Mainly though due to cheap labour rates elsewhere. Not all of us feel so comfortable being reliant on China for everything.

Then, there's the issue of servicing and maintenance - a major consideration for any fleet buyers out there. ICE (and automatic transmissions) will always require servicing, while the servicing costs of EVs are near-zero.

You talk as though an EV's motors are connected directly to the road wheels. Nope, they too have gearboxes. They also have complex cooling systems and a host of other sub-systems that are new to vehicles (principally for cabin heating) without which the car in certain weathers is unusable and will be in the workshop until rectified. An EV is not an anvil and will get more complex in time - multi-ratio gearboxes are a sign of that.

 

[Bellow]

There are two very important aspects of electrification, that aren't often discussed.

The first is the fact that the energy to power EVs is produced centrally, as opposed to ICE cars where each car effectively carries its own private miniature power plant. The reason that this is important is that centralised energy production allows us to swap the fuel quickly and seamlessly - from coal to gas, from gas to wind, from wing to nuclear, etc. Once all cars are fed by electricity from the grid, the transition to renewable energy - or to any other form of clean energy - can be done as a gradual process without affecting motorists. In contrast, it took us 20 years to get cars to fully stop using leaded fuel, and it will take us 20 years again to get rid of oil burning vehicles, etc.

But a shed load of pain for the motorist now. Jam tomorrow is what you're offering.

The second is that we already use electricity to power very many things, from home appliances through factory machinery to trains, and there are advantages in having just one type of energy production method to supply all of our energy needs, rather than have some provided by electricity, some provided by gas, some provided by liquid fuel, etc. At the very list, we will not need a complex network of overlapping separate distribution systems, as we have today (power lines, gas pipes, and petrol stations). Having just one type of energy for all our energy needs will significantly simplify our energy distribution infrastructure.

The infrastructure you refer to is already there. It is the electrification that is resource hungry in being built up. That would be less if the infrastructure for fossil fuel handling were repurposed to carbon neutral fuels.

This is where you get a disparity between the aim of governments who our looking at designing the country's infrastructure for the next generation, and the goals of private individuals who understandably are more concerned with the immediate cost and inconvenience that the proposed changes may cause them personally.

Leadership that shares a vision with its electorate and enables change is commendable. Anything less is imposition of will and carries its own dangers. Stating which of the two we are closer to is to needlessly inconvenience electrons and pixels.

 

[markjay]

Mainly though due to cheap labour rates elsewhere. Not all of us feel so comfortable being reliant on China for everything.

Agreed in principle. However, when applied to EVs, it does sound like virtue-signalling.

The vast majority of the UK population will have a TV at home, a computer, a mobile phone, and an Internet Router. Not to mention white goods and various other electric and electronic devices, from lightbulbs through kettles and up to washing machines etc etc.

And so, while you are 100% right to address the issue of 20% of the world's population - those living in Western countries - exploiting the other 80% by having a high standard of living in the West, not-insignificantly due to cheap labour in the developing world, to single out car production while typing the comment using a plethora of cheaply-made Chinese electronic devices, does sound somewhat disingenuous.

 

[Bellow]

Agreed in principle. However, when applied to EVs, it does sound like virtue-signalling.

The vast majority of the UK population will have a TV at home, a computer, a mobile phone, and an Internet Router. Not to mention white goods and various other electric and electronic devices, from lightbulbs through kettles and up to washing machines etc etc.

And so, while you are 100% right to address the issue of 20% of the world's population - those living in Western countries - exploiting the other 80% by having a high standard of living in the West, not-insignificantly due to cheap labour in the developing world, to single out car production while typing the comment using a plethora of cheaply-made Chinese electronic devices, does sound somewhat disingenuous.

Not really. I'm not dependent on any of the items you mention to get me out to work. My car on the other hand....
The items you mention - for good or bad - are disposable items. My car on the other hand....

 

[markjay]

Not really. I'm not dependent on any of the items you mention to get me out to work. My car on the other hand....
The items you mention - for good or bad - are disposable items. My car on the other hand....

How do you post on here without using any Chinese-made devices....?