The EV fact thread

[clk320x]

IIRC if you pay for supercharging that's based on kWh gained by the car, and not kWh consumed from the grid. So it's unlikely any owner would ever query Tesla's claimed charging efficiency as it's irrelevant in terms of what they pay.

No you’re incorrect here, you pay for what is drawn. This changed a while ago.

 

[philnewmerc]

Yes, numbers are data.
And you're misusing the data to make a dubious claim.
To compare ICE to EV you need comparable data.
With EV's so new, and ICE more than a century old, you need to be compare like for like data.

And Gresham's law does apply to people advertising vehicles that have had significant work.
If vehicles had been reliable, they're less likely to be up for sale. It's the very essence of Gresham's law.

Gresham's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm not making any claims. All I'm saying is that "new battery" seems to crop up more than "new engine" in a simple autotrader search of used cars and I think the future used car buyer's fear will move from "will this engine blow up" to "will this battery conk out". The search was electric Teslas over a period of 10 years, electric Nissans over a period of about 13 year, vs ice cars over a period of about 57 years (first mention of 'new engine' is an mgb).

Summary:
Autotrader experiment. I put "new battery" in the search box in Autotrader:
Tesla shows 0.44 % failure over a period of 10 years.
Nissan electric vehicles show 1.2 % failure over a period of 13 years.
A similar search for "new engine" (for all petrol and diesel cars for all years) results in 0.18 % failure.
***not very scientific*** just thought some might find it interesting. I am not concluding anything from this. The comparison is basically all years of EV vs all years of ice. But (for Mike!) if you compare *10 years of ice then the percentage drops to 0.1% failure* (i thought it would be lower). Over a period of 13 years it is 0.13%.

Interestingly (to me) all ice manufacturers seem to have broadly ball park failure of 0.1-0.2 %, so v roughly 10x less than Nissan battery failures but land rover is about 0.4%, ie about the same as Tesla battery failure in this highly unscientific numbers game.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I'm not making any claims. All I'm saying is that "new battery" seems to crop up more than "new engine" in a simple autotrader search of used cars and I think the future used car buyer's fear will move from "will this engine blow up" to "will this battery conk out". The search was electric Teslas over a period of 10 years, electric Nissans over a period of about 13 year, vs ice cars over a period of about 57 years (first mention of 'new engine' is an mgb).

Summary:
Autotrader experiment. I put "new battery" in the search box in Autotrader:
Tesla shows 0.44 % failure over a period of 10 years.
Nissan electric vehicles show 1.2 % failure over a period of 13 years.
A similar search for "new engine" (for all petrol and diesel cars for all years) results in 0.18 % failure.
***not very scientific*** just thought some might find it interesting. I am not concluding anything from this. The comparison is basically all years of EV vs all years of ice. But (for Mike!) if you compare *10 years of ice then the percentage drops to 0.1% failure* (i thought it would be lower). Over a period of 13 years it is 0.13%.

Interestingly (to me) all ice manufacturers seem to have broadly ball park failure of 0.1-0.2 %, so v roughly 10x less than Nissan battery failures but land rover is about 0.4%, ie about the same as Tesla battery failure in this highly unscientific numbers game.

OK, you're not making any claims.

You've just pointed out that in nine out of 1800 adverts the advertiser has mentioned "new battery."

I'm saying it's misleading to quote that number compared to "new engine" amongst all ICE cars

Two reasons: Three quarters of all EV's are less than three years old. (17,000 out of 22,000 using your sample) data
In only five out of the nine cases did "new battery" mean new EV battery. And in all those cases are EV's over a decade old.

So yes, 5 out of 22,000 EV's appear to have had new EV batteries, but this tells us nothing about EV battery life and replacement.

Examples:
Young Kia EV: "Battery condition is excellent, mileage same as new, battery performance is guaranteed by Kia till 2027"
1.6 litre MINI - wrongly coded as Electric.
2021 VW ID3 Looks like a software update"Just returned back from VW Exeter for the new battery update"
MG ZS Performance and Efficiency are the same as when new Battery pack health checked at last service at 99%
Nissan Leaf: "New battery check certificate."

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I'm not making any claims. All I'm saying is that "new battery" seems to crop up more than "new engine" in a simple autotrader search of used cars and I think the future used car buyer's fear will move from "will this engine blow up" to "will this battery conk out". The search was electric Teslas over a period of 10 years, electric Nissans over a period of about 13 year, vs ice cars over a period of about 57 years (first mention of 'new engine' is an mgb).

Summary:
Autotrader experiment. I put "new battery" in the search box in Autotrader:
Tesla shows 0.44 % failure over a period of 10 years.
Nissan electric vehicles show 1.2 % failure over a period of 13 years.
A similar search for "new engine" (for all petrol and diesel cars for all years) results in 0.18 % failure.
***not very scientific*** just thought some might find it interesting. I am not concluding anything from this. The comparison is basically all years of EV vs all years of ice. But (for Mike!) if you compare *10 years of ice then the percentage drops to 0.1% failure* (i thought it would be lower). Over a period of 13 years it is 0.13%.

Interestingly (to me) all ice manufacturers seem to have broadly ball park failure of 0.1-0.2 %, so v roughly 10x less than Nissan battery failures but land rover is about 0.4%, ie about the same as Tesla battery failure in this highly unscientific numbers game.

The "new engine" search is equally rubbish.

A quick glance at "new engine" for Mercedes gives false readings too.

Lots of "New engine mounts"
"Pristine, like-new, Engine:" on a 2 year old car,"
"Drives and performs as new, Engine and gearbox work effortlessly,
214k mile C class: "changed the timing chain 6 months ago so the engine works as a brand new engine."
"MINOR SERVICE INC NEW ENGINE OIL COOLER 74K MILES"

 

[markjay]

I'm not making any claims. All I'm saying is that "new battery" seems to crop up more than "new engine" in a simple autotrader search of used cars and I think the future used car buyer's fear will move from "will this engine blow up" to "will this battery conk out". The search was electric Teslas over a period of 10 years, electric Nissans over a period of about 13 year, vs ice cars over a period of about 57 years (first mention of 'new engine' is an mgb).

Summary:
Autotrader experiment. I put "new battery" in the search box in Autotrader:
Tesla shows 0.44 % failure over a period of 10 years.
Nissan electric vehicles show 1.2 % failure over a period of 13 years.
A similar search for "new engine" (for all petrol and diesel cars for all years) results in 0.18 % failure.
***not very scientific*** just thought some might find it interesting. I am not concluding anything from this. The comparison is basically all years of EV vs all years of ice. But (for Mike!) if you compare *10 years of ice then the percentage drops to 0.1% failure* (i thought it would be lower). Over a period of 13 years it is 0.13%.

Interestingly (to me) all ice manufacturers seem to have broadly ball park failure of 0.1-0.2 %, so v roughly 10x less than Nissan battery failures but land rover is about 0.4%, ie about the same as Tesla battery failure in this highly unscientific numbers game.

I think that it's important to try and look at make and models, rather than a generic "ICE Vs EV" overview, because battery tech and reliability will differ between manufacturers (as will engine's reliability).

This is important because the majority of used EVs on sale are likely to be Tesla Model S, closely followed by Nissan Leaf, simply because these two models have been around the longest by far, and any overall EV battery reliability statistics will likely be significantly skewd by these two.

 

[philnewmerc]

The "new engine" search is equally rubbish.

A quick glance at "new engine" for Mercedes gives false readings too.

Lots of "New engine mounts"
"Pristine, like-new, Engine:" on a 2 year old car,"
"Drives and performs as new, Engine and gearbox work effortlessly,
214k mile C class: "changed the timing chain 6 months ago so the engine works as a brand new engine."
"MINOR SERVICE INC NEW ENGINE OIL COOLER 74K MILES"

[Looks at shoes] I will work harder on my next homework Mr Wimbledon

 

[BTB 500]

UK's first large-scale hydrogen production plant being built at Stanlow:

Green light for UK's first large-scale hydrogen production plant

EET Hydrogen has received approval to build a low-carbon hydrogen plant HPP1 at the Stanlow Manufacturing Complex in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.

www.offshore-energy.biz

 

[Petrol Pete]

Chinese ferries only allow a max of 18 EV's per sailing.

The irony in this is evident for all to see.

I only know this because of a news story I saw on China Observer (YouTube) showing thousands of new year holiday makers being stranded (and ripped off massively by their countrymen) on Hainan island.

OK , fair enough it seems many of the EV drivers failed to secure return tickets in good time and the figure of 18 comes from a maximum EV load of 10% of cars or 18 units whichever comes first.

The ferry companies (all most likely state owned) state 'increased fire risk due to EV batteries' ,There is a hilarious bit at the end where wealthy Chinese put their EV's on recovery trucks buying a ticket for the truck and it's driver thereby bypassing and making a complete mockery of the 10% or 18EV rule.

You couldnt make this $hit up.

How many EV's are allowed on Le Shuttle or UK Ferries ? Anybody know ?

 

[markjay]

Chinese ferries only allow a max of 18 EV's per sailing.

The irony in this is evident for all to see.

I only know this because of a news story I saw on China Observer (YouTube) showing thousands of new year holiday makers being stranded (and ripped off massively by their countrymen) on Hainan island.

OK , fair enough it seems many of the EV drivers failed to secure return tickets in good time and the figure of 18 comes from a maximum EV load of 10% of cars or 18 units whichever comes first.

The ferry companies (all most likely state owned) state 'increased fire risk due to EV batteries' ,There is a hilarious bit at the end where wealthy Chinese put their EV's on recovery trucks buying a ticket for the truck and it's driver thereby bypassing and making a complete mockery of the 10% or 18EV rule.

You couldnt make this $hit up.

How many EV's are allowed on Le Shuttle or UK Ferries ? Anybody know ?

Re LeShuttle, I just checked online (planning a trip to the Continent in April), and there seem to be no restrictions at current on EVs.

Regarding the Chinese holiday makers.... I wonder, how did all these EVs get to Hainan Island in the first place....? Or did the ferry companies change the rules last-minute?

 

[clk320x]

How many EV's are allowed on Le Shuttle or UK Ferries ? Anybody know ?

No restriction (why should there be)…

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

[Looks at shoes] I will work harder on my next homework Mr Wimbledon

Hey, you can call me “Mike”

Now, moving away from the dodgy stats, I’m still unconvinced about the new engine and new EV battery count method.

Suppose you’ve got a ten year old E or S class that needs a new engine and gearbox. Although you can get refurbished replacements fitted, isn’t there a strong case to scrap it for parts in the 21st century?

Ditto the Tesla S. if you did need new refurbished batteries at 150k miles, isn’t it more obvious to sell it for all those lovely valuable parts?

In both cases, the vehicle wouldn’t reach the used market….

 

[SmartAmg]

No restriction (why should there be)…

Because they all burst into flames, don't ya know.

 

[Deleted member 55947]

Regarding the Chinese holiday makers.... I wonder, how did all these EVs get to Hainan Island in the first place....? Or did the ferry companies change the rules last-minute?

Perhaps they were all staying at the Hotel California on Hainan Island

 

[Bellow]

UK's first large-scale hydrogen production plant being built at Stanlow:

Green light for UK's first large-scale hydrogen production plant

EET Hydrogen has received approval to build a low-carbon hydrogen plant HPP1 at the Stanlow Manufacturing Complex in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.

www.offshore-energy.biz

From the same article >> Mabanaft secures funding for new methanol solar plant in Australia

Methanol stores easily and, works in engines as we know them. (Cheap engines too, not overly complex overly costly diesels at Mercedes replacement RRP).

 

[BTB 500]

From the same article >> Mabanaft secures funding for new methanol solar plant in Australia

Methanol stores easily and, works in engines as we know them. (Cheap engines too, not overly complex overly costly diesels at Mercedes replacement RRP).

Yep all the 2 and 4 stroke engines I used in r/c aircraft ran on methanol.

 

[philnewmerc]

Hey, you can call me “Mike”

Now, moving away from the dodgy stats, I’m still unconvinced about the new engine and new EV battery count method.

Suppose you’ve got a ten year old E or S class that needs a new engine and gearbox. Although you can get refurbished replacements fitted, isn’t there a strong case to scrap it for parts in the 21st century?

Ditto the Tesla S. if you did need new refurbished batteries at 150k miles, isn’t it more obvious to sell it for all those lovely valuable parts?

In both cases, the vehicle wouldn’t reach the used market….

Maybe. But here's where economics and emotions come in: people with v high mileage mercs regularly come on here and explain their woes then spend silly money (eg 5k; a similar amount to the car value) repairing them. Will a 15 yo Tesla have the same attachment that compels the owner to spend 10-15k on a battery (ie similar amount to the car value,)?

 

[markjay]

Yep all the 2 and 4 stroke engines I used in r/c aircraft ran on methanol.

The Cox engine I used as a child ran on a mixture made of a third of Ether, a third of oil, and a third of Petrol. I actually went and purchased a 1L bottle of Ether, no one raised an eyebrow or asked any questions...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Maybe. But here's where economics and emotions come in: people with v high mileage mercs regularly come on here and explain their woes then spend silly money (eg 5k; a similar amount to the car value) repairing them. Will a 15 yo Tesla have the same attachment that compels the owner to spend 10-15k on a battery (ie similar amount to the car value,)?

Yes, it's true, those Teslerati will do anything to keep their Tesla S running. It's that pride in ownership thing.

"I know the car is good, it's just the battery that needs a refurb pack. It's a stylish car that hasn't dated. Let's get it past 300k miles ..."

Jerry, America's AllCar™ app, is the easiest way to compare car insurance policies, refinance car loans, estimate repair costs, and more. 4.7/5 rating.

Jerry AllCar™ App: Get Car Insurance, Loan Refinance, Repair Estimates, Driving Score and more.

getjerry.com

It's the poor old Mercedes goes off to the Breakers.

 

[BTB 500]

The Cox engine I used as a child ran on a mixture made of a third of Ether, a third of oil, and a third of Petrol. I actually went and purchased a 1L bottle of Ether, no one raised an eyebrow or asked any questions...

That's a strange mixture. Ether is used in diesels (not glowplug engines, like Cox ones), but with kerosene rather than petrol. A normal diesel mix would be 35% ether, 35% kerosene, 28% castor oil, and 2% isopropyl nitrate. Cox glow fuel is typically 20% castor oil, 25% nitromethane, and 55% methanol.

 

[markjay]

That's a strange mixture. Ether is used in diesels (not glowplug engines, like Cox ones), but with kerosene rather than petrol. A normal diesel mix would be 35% ether, 35% kerosene, 28% castor oil, and 2% isopropyl nitrate. Cox glow fuel is typically 20% castor oil, 25% nitromethane, and 55% methanol.

If course you're right!

My first engine was in fact a Diesel.

The Cox .20 came later

Mind, that was over 50 years ago.....