The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[grober]

Sorry I was confused there for a moment when you mentioned ethics and uber in the same post. Anyhow the decision statement and an explanation of GREYBALL
Greyball - Wikipedia

 

[markjay]

I think the issue here is that understandably there's an uneasy feeling about the whole process, when the people who made this decision have in fact long campaigned aganist Uber for very different reasons.

A convenient coincidence?

A stroke of luck for Sadiq Kahn whose Mayoral bid was supported by the LTDA, and for Corbyn who opposes any form of un-unionised workforce? Maybe.

I said this before... there are many things one can say against Uber (and personally I only use Hailo/MyTaxi in London anyway), but it does seem that this particular decision was politically motivated, in spite of the official reasons given in the document above.

The Gig Economy is essentially everything that the Corbynites are against - decentralised, un-unioised workers who work when they want and where they want, and worst of all they seem to be happy with their lot and won't complain, ask for a pay rise, or go on strike.

 

[grober]

Could it be that Uber simply made no attempt to comply with TFL regulations? In fact with Greyball they actively conspired to thwart any attemp to monitor their working practices. The theory that TFL's refusal to licence them was somehow politically motivated only holds water if they haven't already fallen foul of other city transport authorities elsewhere in the world. Maybe the United States Department of Justice who are currently investigating them are also Corbynites?
Justice Department Expands Its Inquiry Into Uber’s Greyball Tool

 

[markjay]

Yes:

Uber Seeks to Prevent Use of Greyball to Thwart Regulators

My point was that I can't help thinking that the official statement from TfL (nor Greyball) were the real reason why Uber was banned in London.

 

[grober]

Uber adopt the "we're nice guys really "approach.
The Uber chief executive, Dara Khosrowshahi, has apologised for the "mistakes we've made" after the taxi-hailing firm lost its London licence.

One difficulty expressed by TfL was Uber's "approach to how Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks are obtained" for its drivers. That part of the process was not even handled by Uber, said their executive Mr Jones. Instead, the drivers organised their own DBS check and took that paperwork to TfL. So DIY enhanced disclosure and barring. How does that work then?

 

[markjay]

..One difficulty expressed by TfL was Uber's "approach to how Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks are obtained" for its drivers. That part of the process was not even handled by Uber, said their executive Mr Jones. Instead, the drivers organised their own DBS check and took that paperwork to TfL. So DIY enhanced disclosure and barring. How does that work then?

How very odd indeed... we apply for DBS checks for our staff, and were always told that the employer must apply, not the employee? Possibly this goes back to Uber's controversial business model where each driver is in fact self-employed (a model that has been successfully challenged in court)? If so then I believe the same model is in use by other 'Gig Economy' entrepreneurial businesses e.g. Deliveroo.

This does raise the bigger question of whether allowing people to be 'self-employed' and work when and where they want is a much-welcomed new freedom made possible by advances in modern technology (Internet and mobile phone apps) and those who oppose it are Luddites; or perhaps it is a cynical abuse of workers' rights by greedy businesspeople who try and bypass local employment laws to reduce their own running costs and unfairly complete with established business?

Either way... possibly there were good impartial reasons for banning Uber.... but even so, at the very least it will be true to say that Sadiq Kahn, Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott, and John McDonnell all leaped for joy when they heard the 'good news'.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

I am self employed and have had to apply for my own DBS certificate, it's no different really to using your own Passport or Driving Licence for ID purposes, come to think of it the document itself looks rather like the old driving licence counterpart or, maybe, a birth nor marriage certificate and originals of all of those documents would go unchallenged by most interested parties.

 

[st13phil]

This does raise the bigger question of whether allowing people to be 'self-employed' and work when and where they want is a much-welcomed new freedom made possible by advances in modern technology (Internet and mobile phone apps) and those who oppose it are Luddites; or perhaps it is a cynical abuse of workers' rights by greedy businesspeople who try and bypass local employment laws to reduce their own running costs and unfairly complete with established business?

And that, in a nutshell, is why this is viewed by some as a politically-driven event.

Uber has a track record (worldwide, not just in the UK) of operating in a way that complies with the letter of the local law as they see it, if not the spirit. It would appear that TfL's view is that Uber in London has not actually been complying with the letter of the law let alone the spirit and therefore have decided that their licence to operate is to be revoked. Uber have then done what they always do which is to cry foul and accuse those who stand in their way of being luddites operating against the interests of the consumer. My cynical side is inclined to believe that Uber knew full well that what they were doing was pushing the envelope so as to make more money, but they've been caught out. Arguing that the licence revocation is a political act is, in my cynical view, a tactic to divert attention from that.

 

[grober]

It would appear that transport for LONDON have an established system for applying for a DBS certificate via a trusted third party who I assume meets their exacting operating standards. GB Group.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/information-for-fleet-owners
Application appears to straightforward via an online application system
Online Criminal Record Checks (DBS) - Online Disclosures

GBG is the largest criminal recording checking provider in the UK, and the leading provider of online pre-employment screening and identity intelligence services. GBG KnowYourPeople includes Right to Work, identity verification, referencing, driving license, adverse financial, PEP’s, sanctions and enforcements and adverse media checks. GBG is an umbrella body for the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) and Disclosure Scotland. Established in 2002, we are one of the largest and most experienced criminal record check organisations, processing over 500,000 applications per year. The high volume of disclosures managed via Online Disclosures means we have expertise, speed and accuracy in all aspects of the process. We offer a personal, fast, reliable, cost-effective service by a dedicated, friendly and experienced team.

One can only assume Uber drivers are not using this TFL approved online records check company but alternative companies which fall short of TFL standards for some reason ?

 

[zipdip]

Well we live in a time where people seem to accept just about anything,so the fare in a Uber cab is a bit cheaper than a black cab,not surprising as any old car can be used and do they have hire and reward insurance,as for the drivers there are very little checks done,Uber is in denial,they still think there is something to argue about,the TFL gave them fair warning about their failings,Uber thought they could ignore them,and so the license is revoked,now we have Ubers attention,I think they are going to find out that things are alot more serious than they think,it is quit obvious where Uber is going with their business model ,they want to drive other taxi companies out of business and then they will charge more,at the moment Uber is losing money just how long the backers will swallow this is the question,they are losing far more than the high tech companies of a few years ago and we know what happened then.

 

[Dryce]

Well we live in a time where people seem to accept just about anything

I think the black cabs are a bit of an anachronism now. And they are accepted simply because ... well they are.

Uber is losing money just how long the backers will swallow this is the question,they are losing far more than the high tech companies of a few years ago and we know what happened then.

I think Amazon and Google lost quite a bit in their early years. And Apple has had its ups and downs before it it's current ascendancy.

 

[Dryce]

One can only assume Uber drivers are not using this TFL approved online records check company but alternative companies which fall short of TFL standards for some reason ?

I wonder how any of these companies verify recent arrivals from outside the UK ......

A database check is only as good as the data available - what do they do if there is no data available on their databases.

 

[markjay]

In the news...:

Labour proposes new tax on bookmakers

The history of tax on gambling is very interesting:

Betting & Tax In The UK - Do I Have To Pay Tax On My Gambling Winnings? | Betting Articles | BettingSites.co

 

[zipdip]

Well we have a company valued at $52 billion dollars who do not make a profit,of course they are very worried at what has happened in London,whatever we need safe transport,we have buse's and underground trains all regulated all running certified vehicles all abiding by rules,we have had cabs regulated by laws over 150 years old,because people needed to be safe when hailing a cab,all that Uber is doing is running on the fringes of what is allowed hoping the size of the company and popularity of it's apps will make it immune from regulation,the TFL have acted correctly.

 

[markjay]

Well we have a company valued at $52 billion dollars who do not make a profit,of course they are very worried at what has happened in London,whatever we need safe transport,we have buse's and underground trains all regulated all running certified vehicles all abiding by rules,we have had cabs regulated by laws over 150 years old,because people needed to be safe when hailing a cab,all that Uber is doing is running on the fringes of what is allowed hoping the size of the company and popularity of it's apps will make it immune from regulation,the TFL have acted correctly.

Historically Londoners had a choice between regulated black cabs offering knowledgeable, vetted, cabies in approved black cabs, and non-regulated local minicab firms where the only requirement was for the car to be insured to carry paying passengers.

There was a clear divide between black cabs and minicabs at the time, because black cabs could be hailed in the streets, but minicabs had to be pre-booked and were not allowed to collect passangers in the street.

The current regulation of minicabs in London has nothing to do with Uber, it came about as a compromise when Ken Livingstone introduced Congestion Charging.

The issue at the time was that if minicabs were not exempt from Congestion Charge while black cabs were, the minicab industry will go out of business, restricting choice for Londoners.

Regulating minicabs allowed then to apply for taxi status and be exempt from Congestion Charge.

As key issue is the proliferation of mobile phone apps, which allow customers to 'pre book' a minicab from anywhere and at any time, with the car materliasing withing 5-10 minutes. This places minicabs on-par with black cabs because it is almost the same as 'hailing' a minicab in the street.

There were a few firms that did this, initially over the phone and later using apps, including Swiss Cottage Cars and later Addison Lee, but the big difference came when Uber entered the market because their 'Gig Economy' model allowed thousands of drivers to join in.

I agree thay there is a problem now with the lines blurred between black cabs and minicabs, and I agree that action needs to be taken to protect the public and the minicab and black cab drivers alike.

But I can't help thinking that the concern for the safety of the traveling public is not what is really behind the recent ban.

Yes Uber corporate ethics is lacking, and by their own addmision as well... but realistically the public is much safer now in an Uber cab than it was 20 years ago when travelling with local minicab firms.

I think that the public safety argument may have been used in this case to settle old scores.

 

[grober]

This is perhaps an aspect of the uber v black cab issue that hasn't been touched on. female participation. Perhaps brings into sharper focus the risks of this type of occupation for both driver and passenger

How many women drive for Uber versus Lyft exclusively?

 

[Alfie]

Ive never used Uber myself but aside from all the bad press and bad management of the company (alledgedly) there are other issues here in that Sadiq Khant is himself on the board of TFL and has been pressured by the GMB union to 'sort' Uber out. Judging by the online petition which will now get debated in the house, a huge swathe of the population disagree with Sadiq and his militant mates. Uber will be back im sure. They are not going to let Sadiq win this one. What they have to do to get the appeal upheld, I dont know. We shall see.

 

[markjay]

This is perhaps an aspect of the uber v black cab issue that hasn't been touched on. female participation. Perhaps brings into sharper focus the risks of this type of occupation for both driver and passenger

How many women drive for Uber versus Lyft exclusively?

I don't use Uber in London, but when I was in the states about half the times the Uber drivers I used were female. Not sure this is an indication though.

In London, I have been driven on a few occasions by female black cab driver. But it is indeed quite rare.

Also, in London, looking at cars in traffic around me with the 'minicab' sticker on the windscreen, I can't recall ever seeing a woman driver... I am sure they do exist, but probably just as rare as black cab woman drivers.

No idea what it's like in other cities - are there places in the UK where women taxi and/or Uber drivers are more common?

 

[Deleted member 6183]

My taxi home from lunch on Sunday was driven by a woman.

I had to talk her through the route turn-by-turn.

Not having a pop at women drivers or private hire firms but that's what happened, oh, and we had to wait 40 minutes there and back for the bloody car to arrive.

Lunch was average as well.

And we had to sit right next to some people that we know well but wouldn't choose to have lunch with.

Staying in next week, might get a nice pork joint from the butcher.

 

[markjay]

I think that the current mess is the result of TfL - under successive Mayors - Ken, Boris, and now Sadiq - failing to address the issue of first Addison Lee and then Uber in good time.

The taxi landscape is clearly changing, and the old dividing lines between 'pre-booked' and 'hailed' are no longer valid, thanks to prevalence of mobile phone apps.

TfL are in charge of regulating the public transport system of the UK's biggest city by far, and one of the world's leading capitals.

You would have thought that they would be innovative and forward thinking, but not so... we still have what is in effect an antiquated Diesel-powered 2-tonne LGV vehicle as the official London taxi... in 2017 (!)

It would be easy to blame Labour for allowing the taxi industry in London to stagnate due to being supported by the LTDA... but the fact is the nothing has changed under a Conservative Mayor (Boris) either.

I see this as a common failure of all mayors and TfL over the past 20 years. Congestion Charge and cycling lanes are great, but the hire cars and taxi situation has been slowly but steadily creeping towards reaching a boiling point - the writing was on the wall for some years now - and we have now reached a situation that could have and should have been predicted, anticipated, and pre-empted.

What can be done now?

Option 1: Outlaw minicabs, affecting thousands of minicab drivers, and millions of customers as the black taxi industry will not be able to expand quick enough to compensate.

Option 2: Disband the black cabs, affecting thousand of licensed London cabbies, though the travelling public will be less affected as minicabs and Uber will grow and takeover the black cab market share.

Option 3: Cancel the divide between minicabs and black cabs... come-up with a new 21st century concept called the New London Taxi. Any car will be permitted, as long as it meets certain criteria in terms of size, age, and condition. Cars must meet Euro 6 emissions. AVs will pay a much reduced license fee, and over time all non-EVs will phased-out. A certain percentage of licenses issued must have wheelchair facilities. Drivers will be vetted, regulated, and audited, the vetting will be more rigorous than current mincab/Uber vetting, but it will not take 2-3 years to become a licensed London cabbie and the knowledge will be scrapped.

...this sort of thing - you could argue about the specifics, but the point is the TfL should be forward-looking rather than trying to preserve the past through obsolete regulation.