The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[Scott_F]

I don’t see how UK can be anything other than worse off .

Exactly.

Or to put it another way, leaving with no deal would mean reverting to trading on the world stage under WTO rules and there isn't a single developed country in the world that does so.

And there's a reason for that.

 

[Yugguy]

Very much like people driving around in cars they haven’t actually paid for , and up to their ears in monthly payments for this that and the rest .

These are not analogous.

I can afford my PCP payments and am not in debt because of them.

 

[neilrr]

I've placed my bet on the next Tory leader.

It wasn't on Borris. He's drifting badly in the odds & has way, way too many skeletons in & out of the closet to make it to the end.

 

[markjay]

These are not analogous.

I can afford my PCP payments and am not in debt because of them.

It's technicality... depending on the wording of the contract, you are either hiring a car in which case you have made a financial commitment but are not in debt, or you took out a loan, in which case you are.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

These are not analogous.

I can afford my PCP payments and am not in debt because of them.

Huh?

 

[markjay]

...PFI has proved to be a hugely-lucrative one-way bet for the private companies involved...

We are not saying different things here.

PFI took-out the financial risk from the public sector and placed in the private sector.

Of course if it all worked well then also the reward goes to the private sector.

You could equally argue that the car insurance policy you took out last year was a bad deal because you had no claims.

But obviously that's not how it works. You simply reduced your own financial risk, at a cost, and inevitably made the insurer wealthier in the process.

Whether it's a good idea or bad idea to do so, is another matter. But the philosophy hasn't changed - it's one that says that the private sector should take the financial risk (and also rip the reward) involved in large scale projects.

 

[Bellow]

But as I have said before, politicians court the large section of the electorate who vote for the party that offers them the best tax breaks, moan about poor public services but can’t (or won’t) see the connection.

And it is worth repeating.

But as I have said before, politicians court the large section of the electorate who vote for the party that offers them the best tax breaks, moan about poor public services but can’t (or won’t) see the connection.

How many times does it have to be though for the voters to understand?
Maybe, when police numbers dwindle further and they have to spend more of their own money to protect their wealth they will realise where their ideology leads. A realisation that may be closer to hand than envisaged.

 

[Scott_F]

We are not saying different things here.

PFI took-out the financial risk from the public sector and placed in the private sector.

Of course if it all worked well then also the reward goes to the private sector.

You could equally argue that the car insurance policy you took out last year was a bad deal because you had no claims.

But obviously that's not how it works. You simply reduced your own financial risk, at a cost, and inevitably made the insurer wealthier in the process.

Whether it's a good idea or bad idea to do so, is another matter. But the philosophy hasn't changed - it's one that says that the private sector should take the financial risk (and also rip the reward) involved in large scale projects.

But of course the risk to the private sector turned out to be far less then they claimed it would be when the PFI contracts were being negotiated.

Funny that.

 

[Bellow]

I've placed my bet on the next Tory leader.

It wasn't on Borris. He's drifting badly in the odds & has way, way too many skeletons in & out of the closet to make it to the end.

Betting on who the next PM is all you can do. Who is our next PM will be decided by 75,000 pairs of beige Chinos and 35,000 blue rinses. Is a second referendum still 'undemocratic'?

 

[neilrr]

Stereotyping much?

 

[Bellow]

Stereotyping much?

It's the age in which we currently live....

 

[219]

These are not analogous.

I can afford my PCP payments and am not in debt because of them.

You may be able to afford them , but you'd still be in a stronger financial position , regardless , if you had a car that you'd bought outright from available funds .

 

[Yugguy]

Heh, after running a troublesome 11 year old C class I'm not sure I agree.

 

[Benzowner]

Exactly.

Or to put it another way, leaving with no deal would mean reverting to trading on the world stage under WTO rules and there isn't a single developed country in the world that does so.

And there's a reason for that.

Not quite sure on that, the EU will not let us trade with them after Brexit with zero tariffs, which seems a little strange as that will eliminate the back stop problem, they want us to trade with them on their terms, which as I see it is where the main sticking point lies. We import much more than we export, so if we trade on WTO terms with zero import levy, I am sure much of our imports from the rest of the world and even the EU may become cheaper.

135 Non EU countries, 58 trade on negotiated terms, the rest (77) on WTO. This WTO thing only applies to dealing with the EU don't forget.

 

[flowrider]

Betting on who the next PM is all you can do. Who is our next PM will be decided by 75,000 pairs of beige Chinos and 35,000 blue rinses. Is a second referendum still 'undemocratic'?

Comments like that do you no good at all.

 

[Yugguy]

The reverse snobbery is strong.

 

[Scott_F]

Not quite sure on that, the EU will not let us trade with them after Brexit with zero tariffs, which seems a little strange as that will eliminate the back stop problem, they want us to trade with them on their terms, which as I see it is where the main sticking point lies. We import much more than we export, so if we trade on WTO terms with zero import levy, I am sure much of our imports from the rest of the world and even the EU may become cheaper.

135 Non EU countries, 58 trade on negotiated terms, the rest (77) on WTO. This WTO thing only applies to dealing with the EU don't forget.

There's nothing strange about it - the EU doesn't want members leaving the club whilst trying to retain the benefits of membership such as access to the Single Market and the Customs Union.

And advocating that we trade on WTO terms is utter madness which is why the majority of the public and MPs oppose such folly.

 

[Dryce]

You may be able to afford them , but you'd still be in a stronger financial position , regardless , if you had a car that you'd bought outright from available funds .

It's not that simple.

Companies don't build factories using their savings. And even if they do they don't account for them that way. In effect the 'PCP' type mechanism can leave a business, council, government, or private individual in a stronger position if used as a properly considered and evaluated tool and used when appropriate.

There isn't an absolute right or wrong on this. Building infrastructure using PFI isn't in itself wrong.

But just like PCP or any other mechanism if it becomes a way of masking your true financial position and committing income you haven't earned then each time you do it you need to evaluate the real pros and cons - rather than do what eventally everybody and in business and government will do and that is to use them as the easy path without taking proper responsibility.
.

 

[Dryce]

I don’t see how UK can be anything other than worse off .

It depends on what you measure and how you evaluate what you measure.

An economist will tell you barriers to trade are a terrible thing.

I watch and see there is some truth to this. But over the last 25 years I've seen that it's not the whole truth.

The paradox of our national growth and the absence of trade barriers and the freedom of movement is that we lament gowring inequality.

The UK could end up being worse off. And yet those in the lower economic tiers might actually end up better off.

But what if the 'worse off' is a thing that is really about those in the upper economic tiers who seem to be able to exploit the grand practice of modern economics that demands that labour be commoditised across borders, that money can be moved and accounted for in a jurisdiction of their choice, and that manufacturer and supply consolidates in big globale entities that can squash competition.

And therein - if I am right - is an irony. Brexit is seen as a more right wing political thing than a left wing political thing.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

By my counting, The Brexit Party got the most votes in every constituency in Yorkshire & Humber bar York (which they lost by 1000 votes) but due to the PR, they’ve got three seats and three others shared between Labour, Greens and Lib Dems.

The North East also strong for them.