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I thought we were supposed to love our kids...........

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glojo said:
;)
You clearly are missing the point. John
Nutatall!

You have, in fact, entirely missed the point I was making!

Car design and safety and road engineering have moved so far forward in my lifetime as to be quite unrecogniseable.

However, the human brain, its reaction times and driver skills and attitudes have not progressed one iota.

Fifty years ago, risks may have been known - and risks were taken - but the responsibility was that of the driver. Nowadays, the same "Ford Prefect" attitude can be witnessed any day of the week - lack of attention, careless manoeuvres, no anticipation - never mind road-rage etc. etc. The difference is, the "other" guy is at fault and "you" are absolved from all responsibility.

The step change in car and road safety has been backed up by legislation - put in place over the years for our protection. But you can't legislate for persistent idiotic behaviour - wasn't some woman, recently, responsible for the deaths of several children in a stolen, overcrowded car???

And everyone likes to put their own interpretation on such legislation. Why whine about fines for speeding or parking or using the mobile? The solution to avoiding them is hardly rocket science!

So the kid hangs out of the sunroof - it's hit by a branch - or blinded by grit - or whatever.

And the parents will drive home, shrug, and say "well, sh!t happens"

I don't think so...

Let your kid hang out of the sunroof - something happens - what do you do next? Scratch around looking for someone else to blame - make more ridiculous excuses.

It's the same with falling into debt, falling on an icy pavement, falling for the perfect partner or falling for some get-rich-quick scheme. Who do you blame when it all goes pear-shaped? ....

Certainly not yourself!
 
glojo said:
Even you are now suggesting that it is wrong to allow these children to do what they are doing? ;)

John

hmm, not what I said - it seems to be a good day for misquotes :D

I said if everyone was asked they would most likely say they wouldn't allow their kids to travel like that.

I wouldn't let ours travel like that and I haven't said anywhere in this thread that I would. I don't remember saying it was right either

My issue on this thread has been the "lynch mob" attitude which has been prevalent since the first couple of posts and the hypocrisy of people who think that some laws are there to be broken when it suits them but who are willing to criticise others when they apply their own personal limts to the law.

No it wasn't safe but a lot of the arguments used (low branches etc) have been silly. The whole thread was based on entirely on heresay and quite frankly it was nobodies business except the people pictured in the red merc :)

Andy
 
andy_k said:
hmm, not what I said - it seems to be a good day for misquotes :D

I said if everyone was asked they would most likely say they wouldn't allow their kids to travel like that.

I actually copied and pasted your words???? :o :D Or was that someone impersonating you? :)

By saying 100% would reach a decision then surely you are within that figure???
John
 
sorry John, but my comment said nothing about the rights or wrongs it just said that everyone would say that they wouldn't let their kids do it.

However, if we were to remove the political correctness filter that sometimes seems to shroud this and every other forum then maybe, if the circumstances permitted it not everyone would actually be quite so "right on" :D

Andy
 
andy_k said:
sorry John, but my comment said nothing about the rights or wrongs it just said that everyone would say that they wouldn't let their kids do it.

:D :D So........

Would you allow your children (if you have any) to do exactly what Pammy has illustrated at the beginning of this thread?

John the stirrer
 
andy_k said:
hmm, not what I said - it seems to be a good day for misquotes :D

Or.....could it be that people keep "misunderstanding" you specifically, Andy? You've already tried a similar line with me, only I hadn't misquoted (or misunderstood) you at all...

My issue on this thread has been the "lynch mob" attitude which has been prevalent since the first couple of posts and the hypocrisy of people who think that some laws are there to be broken when it suits them but who are willing to criticise others when they apply their own personal limts to the law.

It's not remotely hypocritical for anyone to see something as blatantly dangerous as two kids hanging out of a car sunroof (which itself is probably travelling at 30mph or more) and to react to it - either by discussing it in a thread or reporting it to the police. It's the perfectly natural reaction for anyone who gives a damn about the lives of those particular kids, as well as any others whose safety is disregarded by irresponsible parents. Lynch-mob attitude..? Actually no Andy, it's called a discussion...

The ludicrous analogies you've tried to draw between recklessly endangering the life of a dependant and parents who occasionally break the speed limit or park on yellow lines are a clear illustration of just how little you appreciate the severity of what those images show. You attempted to counter what was after all a perfectly justifiable reaction to those images with flimsy rhetoric and tenuous arguments - all of which failed completely to alter the basic facts - so you're now trying to smear those with a different opinion to your own with ill-conceived labels born of your own slightly clouded perceptions.

No it wasn't safe but a lot of the arguments used (low branches etc) have been silly. The whole thread was based on entirely on heresay and quite frankly it was nobodies business except the people pictured in the red merc :)

If low branches didn't exist, then of course it would be silly, butof coourse they do. We both know that boughs often give under weight or because of disease or death (to the tree), which causes the branches to bend or break, often leaving them precariously in the paths of cars and other vehicles. So it's not "silly" at all then, is it...?

Colliding with another car, which might pull out from a junction or overtake recklessly. Happens literally every day - a lot. So that one isn't "silly" either...

Emergency braking for a something or someone in the road? Nope, that isn't "silly"...

Even the possibility of a bee or a wasp sweeping into the eyes or mouth of a child at 30 mph + could cause injury. It wouldn't happen to anyone with a windshield, shades or a helmet on, but it definitely could to a child whose upper body and face are travelling through the country air at those kind of speeds. Even that notion isn't "silly".

The whole thread was based on hearsay? Now I'm sure you're having a laugh. You did see the pictures, didn't you..?

And finally, "it's nobody else's business". If one of your neighbours was allowing their young children to take drugs and commit crime, would you ignore it..? If one of your neighbour's children was being abused, would you ignore that too? What if one of your neighbours children was allowed to climb onto the roof of their home without expert supervision and safety equipment..........would you pretend you hadn't seen it? You talk about turning a blind eye as if doing so is the only proper course to take. Of course it isn't!

Danger is danger, whatever form it takes. If some lousy parent can't be bothered to ensure the safety of their kids, what kind of people are we if we choose to "mind our own business"? And as for all this garbage about people's collective desire to be politically correct or "right on"................well it all smacks of nothing more than a desperate bid on your part to make a "smart-sounding, witty comment". In truth, it's been less than successful...
 
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BearFace said:
And finally, "it's nobody else's business". If one of your neighbours was allowing their young children to take drugs and commit crime, would you ignore it..? If one of your neighbour's children was being abused, would you ignore that too? What if one of your neighbours children was allowed to climb onto the roof of their home without expert supervision and safety equipment..........would you pretend you hadn't seen it?

And you accused me of making ludicrous analogies :)

of course I would report them to the police but I wouldn't post it on an internet forum first.

Yes, the thread is based on hearsay and yes I did see the pictures as I'm sure you did, now tell me

1, from those photographs can you beyond any reasonable doubt say that those vehicles are moving?

No you can't because there is no reference, no calibrated speed overlay, not a single indication that they are moving. You have a third parties word for it - hearsay.

2, Beyond any shadow of a doubt can you say those photographs are genuine?

No you can't because they are digital photographs which have been manipulated at least once (ie scaled) before they were uploaded here. I make my living creating digital images of stuff that doesn't exist - I'm sure you'll trust me when I say something like that those images are easy to fake - hearsay.

3, were you there to witness the event?

No you are relying on a third parties information - hearsay.

Now on a slightly different note, we have "confessions" from several forum members (you included) that they occasionally break laws such as speed limits. There's no grey areas here, it's black and white and whilst you may not like the law but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you and the moment you admit to breaking any law you sacrifice any moral high ground and in my opinion that takes away your right to lecture other people on the rights and wrongs of what they may or may not have been doing.

John, I've said all along we keep our kids strapped in when we are in the car so no they wouldn't be allowed to do that (unless of course we were stationary.

this topic has gone on far too long - I still maintain that this was nothing to do with you, me or anyone on this forum apart from Pammy who "witnessed" the event, the Police if they feel it is a serious enough offence and the people who may or may not have been driving the red merc.

That's me finished on this one :)

Andy
 
andy_k said:
And you accused me of making ludicrous analogies :)

Yes, because you did. None of what I asked you was remotely ludicrous - all were entirely possible scenarios, many of which have been reported in the news in recent years. Indeed, they weren't even analogies.....they were illustrations of children in danger which I believed only a fool would ignore...

of course I would report them to the police but I wouldn't post it on an internet forum first.

At best that's a pointless statement, but it does nothing to explain why people shouldn't discuss or debate matters such as this on a forum. And how do you know the matter wasn't reported? You don't...

Yes, the thread is based on hearsay and yes I did see the pictures as I'm sure you did, now tell me

1, from those photographs can you beyond any reasonable doubt say that those vehicles are moving?

No, but then nothing any individual ever sets out to discuss.....EVER......on a forum is 100% verifiable, so we have to assume that people are generally honest and that the discussions we have with them are based on something resembling the truth. If you engage in discussions on forums and have the mindset you're suggesting you have, then apart from looking like a pillock, you're going to struggle to endear yourself and in fact you may as well switch off and watch telly instead. Think about it, how many forum posts DON'T contain information or statements which are not verifiable..?

All that said, I reckon those cars were moving down a road. Either that, or both parties in the two cars elected to stop dead, remain in the vehicle and look ahead, while Pammy in the car behind decided to remain behind them and invent a story. If you're even considering the silly scenario, then I'm more than slightly amused.

No you can't because there is no reference, no calibrated speed overlay, not a single indication that they are moving. You have a third parties word for it - hearsay.

Ok Andy. And Pammy's motive for all this would be..............? :D

2, Beyond any shadow of a doubt can you say those photographs are genuine?

No you can't because they are digital photographs which have been manipulated at least once (ie scaled) before they were uploaded here. I make my living creating digital images of stuff that doesn't exist - I'm sure you'll trust me when I say something like that those images are easy to fake - hearsay.

Gosh, well I'm a commercial photographer with a 6000 sq ft studio and several specialist staff. I make my living solely from digital photography and post-processing images has been a part of my life for more than ten years..........however that's not relevant, because although the image actually looks genuine to me, I'd need more of a reason to question Pammy's motives for inventing / exaggerating the story than I do to simply believe what was claimed happened, actually happened. In any case, can you prove that it wasn't true or that the images have been visually manipulated...?

3, were you there to witness the event?

No you are relying on a third parties information - hearsay.

Sorry Andy, but I need to get something straight. Are you saying that you personally work on the assumption that people are lying to you, unless there is conclusive proof to the contrary? If so, I'll bet you're a fun guy to be around...............Did you know that when you phone the police to report an incident or crime, that even they are happy to act on that information because most people are actually telling the truth..? And yet you require proof before you'll attach credibility to someone's perfectly credible claims on an internet forum................now that's just odd :)

Now on a slightly different note, we have "confessions" from several forum members (you included) that they occasionally break laws such as speed limits. There's no grey areas here, it's black and white and whilst you may not like the law but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you and the moment you admit to breaking any law you sacrifice any moral high ground and in my opinion that takes away your right to lecture other people on the rights and wrongs of what they may or may not have been doing.

Wow, the mind boggles.................not only was that monumentally embarrassing to read Andy, but it's also the biggest pile of unmitigated crap I've ever cast my eyes over. Plenty of people (probably ALL people...) break the law at some point, but that isn't the issue here, and it never has been. The fact that I break the speed limit occasionally does not prevent me from witnessing a scenario in which a child is severely neglected or actively endangered in the presence of it's parents. The fact that I occasionally break the speed limit does not prevent me making a decision to report those people for that very crime. The fact that I break the speed limit occasionally has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how I choose to discuss or offer my views on such an ocurrance..............The only thing that would make me a hypocrite would be if I myself was guilty of endangering my children to the extent that someone had to report me. But I'm not, so they don't....

In fact to avoid hypocrisy, the only thing I could not afford to do would be to criticise other people for occasionally breaking the speed limit. But then that's hardly the same thing as the utterly mindless statement you just made, is it..?


That's me finished on this one :)

I wasn't aware you'd actually started :(
 
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grasmere said:
HHmm - so let me get this right - you clearly dont know that its ILLEGAL for car passengers to be unbelted and thats its the DRIVERS responsibility to ensure they are belted up

I haven't been online for a day or so - and how this thread goes on !

Whilst not wishing for one second to dispute the life saving benefits of seatbelts , the above is not entirely correct ....

There are exceptions to the seatbelt laws (pre 1964 vehicles , medical exemptions , door to door delivery vehicles ..) but that's not the main point .

It is the driver's responsibility to ensure that passengers UNDER THE AGE OF 14 are restrained ; if the passengers are older than that then they themselves are responsible for their own safety and are liable fot the fine if no exemptions are applicable .

There were also comments further on about how vehicle safety has improved over the years . Yes , newer cars have more safety features (Seatbelts , secondary restraint systems i.e. airbags , ABS , Timishenko girders , brake assist etc. etc.) .

Roads , too , have been made safer as hazards have been recognised and eliminated : if accident statistics on a particular road indicate a problem then road engineers may take out a bend or redesign a junction ; sometimes a twisty 'drivers' road is replaced by a straight , wide 'boring' road ....

What happens ? It is well documented that as cars and roads get 'safer' , people tend to drive faster or otherwise take risks they might not have before . This is called 'risk compensation' and it , unfortunately , is one of the reasons why new laws are constantly being brought in .
 
Bearface,
Your low branch theory does not stack up:D You ride a motorcycle as do I. Mine, however is a BMW GS and when on my bike I would be looking down on those kids. People carriers would also clear the branches away, not to mention vans and lorrys. The only possible hit would be from an insect or bird. I ride with an open face helmet and yes it stings when hit by a biggy bug, but I have never considered my life in any danger, even when hit in the eye, and I have never been hit by a bird.
 
This whole thread brings to mind the old saying 'People who live in glass houses', and maybe I'm getting wrong but I think that is all Andy is getting at.
 
Well I despair!! To clear up a couple of technical points first. The cars were moving - I have a whole raft of photo's if anyone is interested all with time etc shown on them do you can judge for yourselves if this was staged or real. And yes it could all be manipulated if I was really that warped.

Our car is not a left hooker it's a Voyager and hubby was driving, I used a zoom facility and at times yes perhaps we were closer, but that was when they were travelling at their slowest - but they were also very close to the Jag that they were behind all the time. You cannot judge from those pics though how close we were or that they were taken from the driver's seat and assumptions that have been made are wrong!.

As for reporting them to the police - what I said was I am tempted - not that I was going to. So are we no longer allowed to have an opinion on another person's behaviour if it is clearly questionable?

I also fail to see how any bike rider would look down on those kids. The girl's head must have been at least level ioth the roof of our Voyager - I've never met a biker who's head is so high when riding

I am most disspointed that people here think I would lie and make this up. Andy you in particular seem to want to turn this into some sort of personal vendetta, aalthough to be fair you did correct Sp!ke - so thanks for that.

I thank all of those who have contributed in a constructive manner and who have defended me. But the majority of contributors to this thread know me well enough by now to know that I would never stage such a thing - I don't have that kind of mind and the thought that I do and would has bitterly disppointed me the most. I have not been around for a couple of days as my PC blew up and I only have very limited access now;) , but to come back to this:(

This has all got way out of hand and I wish the thread was locked.
 
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Pammy ,

I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of people on here do not think for one moment that you manipulated any evidence or embellished the facts in any way .

We may differ sometimes in our opinions , but I do respect your views and believe that your accounts are honest and true .
 
Hi Pammy
:o I was finished with this thread as it was getting a bit silly, but strange as it might seem I will defend Andy (only a little though ;) )

I am 100% convinced that he is NOT accusing you of altering the pictures, nor saying that you were actually stationary.

I think he is playing Devils Advocate (and it has not come across very well) and simply defending this plonker. We ALL KNOW you posted this thread with the best of intentions and I have enjoyed taking part in a very constructive debate (at times).

I have had the priviledge of meeting Andy, plus he has helped any number of us with varying problems and he is an okay guy. (Even though he has long hair and beard :) :) )

Thanks for starting a very good thread, and thank you for posting the excellent pictures.

Yours sincerely,
John
 
like John, I'd finished as well but trust me, I never said that Pammy had altered these photos or lied about how they were taken.

I said the driver may well use that defence if challenged and I said it would be easy to edit them if you wanted to and that no-one had any firm proof that it hadn't been done :)

No offence was intended and it's not some sort of vendetta

Andy
 
Geoff2 said:
Bearface,
Your low branch theory does not stack up:D You ride a motorcycle as do I. Mine, however is a BMW GS and when on my bike I would be looking down on those kids. People carriers would also clear the branches away, not to mention vans and lorrys. The only possible hit would be from an insect or bird. I ride with an open face helmet and yes it stings when hit by a biggy bug, but I have never considered my life in any danger, even when hit in the eye, and I have never been hit by a bird.

So let me get this right Geoff...........you're telling me categorically that there would be no potential whatsoever for motorcyclists (or kids standing up in cars) to collide with low branches or any other items which may have fallen or become suspended above the road? I just want to be sure here; it definitely couldn't happen, right..?

Secondly, you're telling me that because you've never been hit by a bird on your bike, that it couldn't happen to anyone else, is that right too..? Thing is, I've had birds hit my windshield twice; once on a bike in France and once when I worked for Land Rover and a gull hit the windscreen of my Defender on a country road close to my home.....and the screen was destroyed...

My main argument from the outset was that children would be flung forwards at great speed in the event of any road-speed collision, and that injury (at least) would be likely to occur if those children were unrestrained inside the car. If they were half out of the car (as in the pictures), then they could be thrown from the vehicle or receive injuries from sunroof cut-out area itself - both likely if there was a crash or even a sudden stop, and both potentially horrific.

Low branch collisions could well be a particularly unlikely scenario, but I'm afraid you simply aren't qualified to decide whether my suggestion "stacks up", because however rare or unusual it sounds, it's an entirely possible scenario. :D
 
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zooman said:
This whole thread brings to mind the old saying 'People who live in glass houses', and maybe I'm getting wrong but I think that is all Andy is getting at.

As I said to Andy, if anyone here was getting their knickers in a twist because someone had been photographed speeding, I'd agree with you 100% because we've all been guilty of speeding at some point. However someone was photographed allowing two children to hang out of the sunroof of a moving car and as far as I can recall, nobody in this thread would dream of allowing their children to do anything like that.

So if any of us are the "People in glass houses....", I'd like to know how. And why....
 
zooman said:
Now I'm thinking 'dog with a bone'

You got it in one.

Woof.
 
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